How to fly storm jib w/o 2nd headstay?

[CFS Klopas]

A jib rolled up that much doesn't point well. The rolled up portion disrupts airflow near the luff. That small scrap of jib isn't cut for optimal power either.

[garyfdl]

I had a dual track foil headsail furler. I could change out the headsails faster on that than I could with a hank-on headsail. It did take a little practice tho', doing it single handed, as you have to bring the halyard forward and pull the sail up as you feed it into the foil. With two people, one feeding and one hoisting, it was a snap!

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

I know that there is a little bit of an issue with sail shape of a mostly furled jib vs a purpose built storm jib, but if you're in a storm where you're to the point of flying a storm jib does the sail shape really matter? Why not just unroll a very small bit of the jib?

Because that little bit of jib will be well frd and up in the sky.
OK - just - if you are getting blown down wind - no use at all if trying to make any progress whatsoever to windward when combined with a triple reefed main or trysail. Your sail plan will be totally unbalanced.

Buy a boat with a proper inner forestay.

[dougweibel]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

I know that there is a little bit of an issue with sail shape of a mostly furled jib vs a purpose built storm jib, but if you're in a storm where you're to the point of flying a storm jib does the sail shape really matter? Why not just unroll a very small bit of the jib?

If you are in the middle of the ocean sail shape may not matter but if you are trying to stay off a lee shore on the coast sail shape matters immensely. Similarly, if you need to point as high as possible to get to, or stay on, the less severe side of the storm then you definitely care about sail shape.

Bare poles is probably just as good a strategies as a very small bit of poorly shaped headsail.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by dougweibel

If you are in the middle of the ocean sail shape may not matter but if you are trying to stay off a lee shore on the coast sail shape matters immensely. Similarly, if you need to point as high as possible to get to, or stay on, the less severe side of the storm then you definitely care about sail shape.

Bare poles is probably just as good a strategies as a very small bit of poorly shaped headsail.

In the first place we are arguing about the difference between a perfect shape (LOL) and an imperfect but usable shape, for conditions which you will be unlikely to encounter in 10 years, and when you do, if you ever do, you can tolerate the imperfect shape, it will still work.

And a small jib (say 100%) which will power you in most ocean going conditions, on the furler, with a foam luff, can be rolled in several turns and still have ACCEPTABLE shape. Then you may have a 50-60% jib which you CAN use going to weather with sufficient mainsail area to drive the boat.

On the other hand, adding rigging and equipment (another stay) or other add-ons will hinder you every sailing day of your life. Either it will be in your way, or stored somewhere on deck, or you have to tack around it, or whatever, and you'll likely never use it.

The argument that a rolled out portion of a jib is no good because it is too high in the air, OMG, so friggin what? It won't be optimal but it will work and for that you want to add an inner stay so you have have a perfect storm jib shape that you might use once in 2035?

Instead of adding crap to your boat, just go sail it and you'll learn some valuable stuff instead of all this theoretical nonsense.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by CFS Klopas

A jib rolled up that much doesn't point well. The rolled up portion disrupts airflow near the luff. That small scrap of jib isn't cut for optimal power either.

Not trying to be argumentative, but if you're to the point that you're putting out storm sails are you in any kind of position to be trying to point anywhere upwind? I always thought about storm sails as something you put up in that narrow window between your third reef and your drouge. It's really just there to keep the boat under a modicum of control and maybe head in a general direction, not close haul to try to get upwind.

[CFS Klopas]

I get why cruisers wouldn't care about going upwind in heavy air, but some sailors do. Storm jibs are commonly required for long distance races.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by dougweibel

ATN Gale Sail

I have yet to hear from anyone who has actually used an ATN Gale Sail in a storm.


I wonder if it has ever been done.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

I know that there is a little bit of an issue with sail shape of a mostly furled jib vs a purpose built storm jib, but if you're in a storm where you're to the point of flying a storm jib does the sail shape really matter? Why not just unroll a very small bit of the jib?

In theory there is a band of wind speeds where the fabric of the genoa is not strong enough to withstand the force of the wind without damage, but where a storm jib will provide directional control. For the sake of discussion this might be 45-60 knots.



Since the entire purpose of sailing in such conditions is to maintain directional control, yes, shape matters. If you're content to be blown to lee no sails are necessary.


Improvements in weather forecasting and communications aboard, and faster sailboats, make it less common for a boat to encounter such winds.


A fact to consider is that many cruising boats would not be able to muster crew capable of active steering in such exhausting conditions. A sea anchor or drogue starts to look like a good choice.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Jammer

In theory there is a band of wind speeds where the fabric of the genoa is not strong enough to withstand the force of the wind without damage, but where a storm jib will provide directional control. For the sake of discussion this might be 45-60 knots.



Since the entire purpose of sailing in such conditions is to maintain directional control, yes, shape matters. If you're content to be blown to lee no sails are necessary.


Improvements in weather forecasting and communications aboard, and faster sailboats, make it less common for a boat to encounter such winds.


A fact to consider is that many cruising boats would not be able to muster crew capable of active steering in such exhausting conditions. A sea anchor or drogue starts to look like a good choice.

There's actually a subtlety that's being missed I think. I fully agree that the purpose of a storm sail is to maintain directional control. To me ”directional control” in 60 knot winds and ensuing seas is being able to keep the boat generally on a heading where it isn't swamped and the crew and contents of the boat aren't turned into mush. It isn't pointing upwind to sail away from a lee shore, which is what several posters seem to be implying.

I hope a cruiser who has actually used a storm sail in 60 knot winds is able to contribute to this thread. If so, I would be curious if they actually sailed somewhere close hauled in 60 knot winds with their storm sails? That just seems wildly unrealistic to me, but I haven't tried it (and hope not to!).

[Auspicious]

I've run into a lot of sail configurations forward of the mast on delivery. Here is what I've chosen for my own boat.

I have a cutter-rigged sloop. The inner forestay is removable and stows at the mast on a special fitting. I have five headsails: 1. a 100% heavy working jib (#3) on the furler offshore and Fall through Spring in my home cruising grounds on Chesapeake Bay, 2. a light 135% genoa (#2) on the furler during light air Summer on the Chesapeake, 3. a hank-on staysail with one reef (I've only practiced with the reef), 4. a heavy asymmetric cruising spinnaker, and 5. a light symmetric spinnaker. For context I have three reefs in the main.

With the #3 up I generally reef the main first, all the way to the third reef, before touching the jib. More than a few turns and I downshift to the staysail. Note that offshore the inner forestay is rigged and the staysail hanked on and bagged on deck with sheets run. In my opinion a sail in a bag below is useless in heavy weather. My plan beyond that is to reef the staysail then strike the main. I haven't gotten that far, and I've sailed in F8 rising 9.

With the #2 up, the genoa gets reefed first down to about 100% and then my usual protocol kicks in.

It's worth noting that the windage of a rolled up furling headsail is substantial and can lead to high rudder angles to maintain a course. Don't undersize autopilot actuators. Keep your batteries charged. Vanes start looking pretty good as long as the response time is fast and what would be called hysteresis in an electronic pilot is small.

Windage from a headsail lowered to the deck and lashed is also significant. It also leads inevitably to a lot of water in the cockpit.

A wet headsail stuffed below is also a bad idea. Sometimes we are left with the least bad of multiple poor choices. I stick with the furled headsail. I have been known to counterwind a spinnaker halyard around the furled sail. YMMV.

I have sailed on boats with an ATN Gale Sail. On one trip--a certification trip for insurance underwriters to issue a policy--we tried to raise it at the dock after a spirited day sailing in 15-20G25 with scattered showers. We could not get the Gale Sail up over the wet sun shield of the jib. There was simply too much friction. Remember this was at the dock with three people working together and no need for a watch or any other sailing functions. We weren't bouncing around. Based on that experience my opinion is that the Gale Sail and its like are expensive tarps and not useful storm sails. Note the ATN promotional video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReDaR8FNZ9s

is shot in barely 12 kts of breeze. The Gale Sail like its sister the Tacker is a way of separating sailors from money with promises which are not delivered upon.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I've run into a lot of sail configurations forward of the mast on delivery. Here is what I've chosen for my own boat.

I have a cutter-rigged sloop. The inner forestay is removable and stows at the mast on a special fitting. I have five headsails: 1. a 100% heavy working jib (#3) on the furler offshore and Fall through Spring in my home cruising grounds on Chesapeake Bay, 2. a light 135% genoa (#2) on the furler during light air Summer on the Chesapeake, 3. a hank-on staysail with one reef (I've only practiced with the reef), 4. a heavy asymmetric cruising spinnaker, and 5. a light symmetric spinnaker. For context I have three reefs in the main.

With the #3 up I generally reef the main first, all the way to the third reef, before touching the jib. More than a few turns and I downshift to the staysail. Note that offshore the inner forestay is rigged and the staysail hanked on and bagged on deck with sheets run. In my opinion a sail in a bag below is useless in heavy weather. My plan beyond that is to reef the staysail then strike the main. I haven't gotten that far, and I've sailed in F8 rising 9.

With the #2 up, the genoa gets reefed first down to about 100% and then my usual protocol kicks in.

It's worth noting that the windage of a rolled up furling headsail is substantial and can lead to high rudder angles to maintain a course. Don't undersize autopilot actuators. Keep your batteries charged. Vanes start looking pretty good as long as the response time is fast and what would be called hysteresis in an electronic pilot is small.

Windage from a headsail lowered to the deck and lashed is also significant. It also leads inevitably to a lot of water in the cockpit.

A wet headsail stuffed below is also a bad idea. Sometimes we are left with the least bad of multiple poor choices. I stick with the furled headsail. I have been known to counterwind a spinnaker halyard around the furled sail. YMMV.

I have sailed on boats with an ATN Gale Sail. On one trip--a certification trip for insurance underwriters to issue a policy--we tried to raise it at the dock after a spirited day sailing in 15-20G25 with scattered showers. We could not get the Gale Sail up over the wet sun shield of the jib. There was simply too much friction. Remember this was at the dock with three people working together and no need for a watch or any other sailing functions. We weren't bouncing around. Based on that experience my opinion is that the Gale Sail and its like are expensive tarps and not useful storm sails. Note the ATN promotional video

is shot in barely 12 kts of breeze. The Gale Sail like its sister the Tacker is a way of separating sailors from money with promises which are not delivered upon.

That's a wealth of no doubt hard won knowledge, thanks for sharing it. One point I didn't understand was "I have been known to counterwind a spinnaker halyard around the furled sail. YMMV.", can you expand on what you mean by that?

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by CFS Klopas

A jib rolled up that much doesn't point well. The rolled up portion disrupts airflow near the luff. That small scrap of jib isn't cut for optimal power either.

If you look at the video that @Auspicious kindly provided, you'll see that not only does the storm sail we're talking about here go onto an already rolled-up jib, but has it's own very bulky attachment added on to that. I'm not sure how the airflow would be disrupted less with the entirety of the rolled-up jib + the big sleeve the Gale Sail adds to that, compared with a section of the jib itself, it would seem to be the opposite wouldn't it?

I'm also confused with this "optimum power" concept when we're talking about 60 knot winds. The whole point of a Gale Sail is that the existing sails are overpowered. When you've got 60 knots of wind, the very last problem in the world you have is not having enough power from your sail! If the small scrap of jib isn't providing enough power, you can always put out a slightly bigger scrap, no? Isn't that the point of a rolling furler, you can infinitely adjust the amount of sail you have out? I guess all this talk about ensuring you have an optimal sail geometry, airflow, and airfoil shape just doesn't make sense to me when you're in a situation where you not only have all the power you need but far more than you need.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

That's a wealth of no doubt hard won knowledge, thanks for sharing it. One point I didn't understand was "I have been known to counterwind a spinnaker halyard around the furled sail. YMMV.", can you expand on what you mean by that?

Sure. When you roll up the headsail the leech and sun cover wrap around the furler in a descending spiral from the head to the clew. Looking top down that's either clockwise or counterclockwise. Wind the spinnaker halyard around the sail in the opposite direction. This helps keep the wind from getting under the sail and causing a tear that precedes all Hell breaking loose. From the clew down the halyard and the sail go the same direction. If that bothers you a few sail ties will do the trick.

Originally Posted by redneckrob

If you look at the video that @Auspicious kindly provided, you'll see that not only does the storm sail we're talking about here go onto an already rolled-up jib, but has it's own very bulky attachment added on to that. I'm not sure how the airflow would be disrupted less with the entirety of the rolled-up jib + the big sleeve the Gale Sail adds to that, compared with a section of the jib itself, it would seem to be the opposite wouldn't it?

Yep. The Gale Sail is slightly lower but just as far forward. I'm not impressed by wrapping the jib sheets around the headsail down to the tack either. Using a piece of jib is no worse and arguably better from a sailing point of view.

BUT...

Originally Posted by redneckrob

When you've got 60 knots of wind, the very last problem in the world you have is not having enough power from your sail! If the small scrap of jib isn't providing enough power, you can always put out a slightly bigger scrap, no? Isn't that the point of a rolling furler, you can infinitely adjust the amount of sail you have out?

You're on point. You missed a failure mode with the infinitely adjustable jib: the furling line. Chafe, a failed line stopper, a slipping cleat hitch, ... any one of a number of ways for that line to fail and the entire sail comes rolling out RIGHT NOW. The technical term for that is "bad. Very bad."

As to your other related questions, you do care about geometry in heavy weather to help keep rudder loads down and yaw loads low. Keeping the CE of each individual sail low and longitudinally centered is good practice. Generally you try to depower the sails by flattening them. In principle you want enough lift to maintain forward motion as opposed to all leeway. In practice you can't get the sails flat enough to worry about too flat.

[CFS Klopas]

The wind generating that extra power in heavy air is also causing drag on the parts of your boat that aren't sails. Efficient generation of lift is also needed. I don't have much experience with this, but I've seen enough stories here of boats unable to make progress to windward in rough conditions or maybe 1-2kts VMG to know it can be difficult.

Auspicious points out that the GaleSail also has a lot of spare cloth on the headstay, but the traditional storm jib is hanked on.