How to estimate repair costs from survey??

[tikirawker]

My friend and I are in the process of getting our first sail boat.
The surveyor had a mixed report but said the boat has a decent foundation.
We are on a budget so we knew going in there would be some repairs etc...

This was part of the plan as we would get more intimate with the boat fixing and upgrading so when we made our first long voyage we could have the best education possible (everybody has their first trip sometime....).

The report listed all kinds of items that i do not even know how to guestimate the cost or repairing. So how do we make the final negotiations or requests for concessions?
here is an example - during the trip from the dock to the marina the impeller had an issue so it was fixed before the survey. during the repair they discovered an unknown aux fuel tank and for some reason it leaked diesel fuel. so now the boat smells like diesel and the tank needs to be removed and/or replaced. Do we request $500 or $5000...

[stevec195]

Shipmate,
In my limited but intense exposure to boat ownership, I would submit that after 4 boat surveys coupled with my experience as a aviation mechanic-boat surveys outside a REALLY trusted resource for the PARTICULAR boat type you are selecting are RUBBISH. Sorry for the all caps. Seek some knowledge from some one familiar with at least the vintage boat you are looking at in addition to a survey. In a lot of cases a "passing" survey means only that the vessel can be reasonably navigated out of sight of the survey pier. The costs to bring a boat up to reliable standards vary largely with the age and construction of the boat. Danger Will Robinson.



Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[minaret]

Originally Posted by tikirawker

My friend and I are in the process of getting our first sail boat.
The surveyor had a mixed report but said the boat has a decent foundation.
We are on a budget so we knew going in there would be some repairs etc...

This was part of the plan as we would get more intimate with the boat fixing and upgrading so when we made our first long voyage we could have the best education possible (everybody has their first trip sometime....).

The report listed all kinds of items that i do not even know how to guestimate the cost or repairing. So how do we make the final negotiations or requests for concessions?
here is an example - during the trip from the dock to the marina the impeller had an issue so it was fixed before the survey. during the repair they discovered an unknown aux fuel tank and for some reason it leaked diesel fuel. so now the boat smells like diesel and the tank needs to be removed and/or replaced. Do we request $500 or $5000...

You should take a few dozen high res pics of the boat in question, all compartments and rigging included, and post them here. Then watch as the denizens of CF tear them apart like a flock of angry buzzards! They will blow up your pics and hunt down each and every flaw, I'm guessing. Probably be better than any possible survey.

[maxingout]

When I do a survey on a used yacht, I don't ask the question how much it will cost to fix it. I ask how much it costs to replace the item.

The marine environment is hostile to most systems on board a yacht, and I have found that fixing is temporary lasting months to a few years at best.

Replacement usually gives me at least five years of good service.

Of course I am talking about a yacht that will be used offshore where the system need to be extremely reliable.

If it was a day sailor that I was going to keep for only a short time, I probably would fix stuff rather than replace it.

Anyway, it's easier to calculate replacement costs rather than fixing costs. I usually go with the higher number, and I am usually not disappointed.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Yours is a common plan. And on the surface, "reasonable". However when the latter & "reality" meet, as Tarzan would say - "That's Bad Juju Bwana".
AKA bad things can happen to your; plans, time table, state of mind, & wallet... This, from someone who's been there (& should have known better).

The short version of my standard advice is to read this article A Refit Reality Check | Cruising World Followed by everything which he's written that you can get your hands on. He's the install & fixit guru for 90-something% yachting.
Keeping in mind, all the while, that the cost of what goes into a cruising boat, costs more than the boat itselff - Literally.

And for some other sage advice, do some reading here www.Mahina.com as amongst other things, they help people to choose boats which will fit them, for cruising.

Also, if you're feeling ambitious (& smart) put together a spread sheet, & on it, list every system that the boat you want (this one or any other) to have. Then start ticking the boxes in said document, of what it already has. And also, begin adding up the tally of what it doesn't, & the price of said items, plus their install costs, & a hefty fudge factor on top of that.

BTW, Bottom Line: Not to be a Scrooge, as I'd rather give it to you straight. If you're asking these kinds of questions about overhauling a boat, you ain't ready for such a project.


Though for a fun dose of reality on the topic, see below: The couple in this jaunt, purchase an old classic, fix her up and...
www.ProjectAtticus.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPha...ccjGDIlLy78ot3

[valhalla360]

Figure complete replacement and triple the cost.

You only provided a little sketchy information but from what I see, it's iffy that the boat is worth it.

Get a boat in decent condition. You will still have plenty of opportunity to work on it and if you get tired of working on it, you have a much better chance of selling it and getting some of your money back.

[chuckr]

We have done a bit of this over the years. And we are having a survey done this year. We already know some items that need to be replaced or repaired. To get some idea of the cost we get at least 2 estimates from competent repair people that is broken down by parts and labor.
We then look at the parts and compare to what we can get them for. We also look at the work to be done and can or can we not do it ourselves or can we help and if we help what is the discount for "free" labor. Some stuff I feel I am just not qualified to undertake as we use our boat hard and the last thing I want is a problem from an inadequate or improper repair. I did it once and learned my lesson.

When we get our next survey we will evaluate it and then see as the boat will be under repair anyway with a list of things I know need done.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by tikirawker

The surveyor had a mixed report

And herein lies your answer. Look for a boat that gets a solid report with only reasonably needed updates such as electronics, light fixtures (needing to switch to LED), sails, etc. These updates can be easily done DIY and will go along way in keeping/improving the value of the boat. Unlike other fixes which simply prevent the value going from zero to negative territory.

And yes with boats there is such thing as a negative value. My hauler says that unless the boat has a clear title, a perfectly working engine and a usable trailer he has to charge at least $1,000 to haul it away to a junk yard of which about half is the hauling cost and the rest is a disposal cost.

[Ribbit]

I'm coming up to this situation myself within the next few weeks.

What I would suggest doing, is split off what you 'need' to do, from what you 'want' to do.

In line with what is mentioned above, 'need' will be based on inspection, servicing, and replacement. If careful this does not have to be that expensive. It is the 'wants' that REALLY drive up the bills.

Concentrate on needs, and get afloat sailing this year, at the lowest of unavoidable costs. You will then know as you go, the priorities for your wants. If the needs list is too long, and the price for doing what needs to be done is too high (only you can know that), then run, don't walk, away from the deal.

At the moment I have a huge list of wants and needs, and a few items on the 'future upgrades' list (e.g. a watermaker). I can only start moving items on that list around, onto process lists for maintenance, replacement, and upgrade lists, after the survey and haulout, then again after the shakedown cruise prior to hitting the Caribbean, and then again after the trip down the Caribbean, prior to servicing (and fitting storm covers to the ports, for example) before the jump off across the Pond.

Much of the present 'wouldn't it be nice if . . ' list will be discarded after experience with the boat, and things that make sense to add, will go on to the relevant list, at a suitable schedule, in their place.

Exercise a little caution, and it needn't turn into a financial and extended delay nightmare, and you get afloat sooner rather than later.

Best of luck and the greatest of fun with it.

[tikirawker]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Figure complete replacement and triple the cost.

You only provided a little sketchy information but from what I see, it's iffy that the boat is worth it.

Get a boat in decent condition. You will still have plenty of opportunity to work on it and if you get tired of working on it, you have a much better chance of selling it and getting some of your money back.

GENERAL PHYSICAL CONDITION

This vessel was found to be a generally good, production quality built to the Moorings charter group specifications,

sloop rigged sailboat, constructed of fiberglass with a bolt on full ballast keel, an aluminum mast stepped on deck

directly over a compression post and auxiliary propulsion provided by Yanmar model 3GM30F,three cylinder inline,

four cycle, fresh water cooled, 24 HP (@ 3400 rpm), marine diesel engine with a Kansai model KHSP, 2.91:1

reduction, marine gear coupled to a single section shaft using a Volvo dripless shaft log gland and turning a bronze

two blade propeller.

Outfitted with a basic compliment of marine electronics, an Anchor Air 16,000 BTU marine air conditioning system, an

inoperative Mastervolt diesel marine generator and transom mounted dinghy davits, the interior layout offers a full V

berth stateroom forward with a toilet compartment on the port side and storage across. Bench type settee seating is

on each side of the salon area with a compression post table, galley and aft berth entrance on the port side, navigation

station across over the top load freezer boxes and an additional toilet compartment aft on the starboard side. and a

single entrance toilet compartment is on the starboard side. Molded centerline companionway steps over the auxiliary

engine access lead up to the open cockpit area with pedestal steering, snack table and ample passenger seating with

centerline gate aft for access to the fold down swim boarding ladder.

Although this vessel was found to be in acceptable overall condition, the vessel does suffer from the lack of current

care and regular usage with numerous deficiencies observed and listed to form a part of this report.

*****

RECOMMENDATIONS / DEFICIENICES

1. The poorly installed and uncertified after market auxiliary fuel tank appears to be leaking with removal of the

tank and deck fill cap and plumbing, further inspection for fuel leakage and thorough cleaning and deodorizing

of the bilge areas advisable.

2. The engine temperature was found to be higher than Yanmar specification during sea trials was observed with

replacement of the section of age cracked sea water intake hose, an engine oil change with filter and a

complete servicing of the closed and sea water cooling system recommended to verify the operation of the

Yanmar temperature alarm warning system and ensure that acceptable operating temperatures can be

maintained.

3. Replace the crimped section of fuel fill hose for the builder installed main fuel tank.

4. Ensure acceptable installation and operation of the thru hull fitting shut off valve located in the centerline bilge

directly forward of the auxiliary engine.

5. Ensure that each of the ship’s batteries is properly secured from movement with positive terminal post covers

installed to comply with current NFPA # 302 guidelines,

6. Remove the pitted propeller shaft for inspection and replacement as found warranted, replace the heavily

deteriorated propeller and replace the tail strut cutless bearing ensuring acceptable engine and shaft

alignment with no excessive shaft log leakage around the shaft log thru hull gland.

FILE NO SMS *****

RECOMMENDATIONS / DEFICIENICES continued

7. Ensure proper installation and operation of the thru hull fitting shut off valves located centerline directly forward

of the auxiliary engine.

8. The radar would not power up, the screen display for the GPS is weak, the speed log was inoperative

9. Both handheld type fire extinguishers should be inspected annually by qualified personnel.\

10. Maintain emergency signal distress flares with current dates of serviceability onboard the vessel.

11. Repair several of the inoperative cabin DC light fixtures and the two DC fans.

12. Service and lubricate all deck winches.

13. Repair the torn seams for canvas section of the Doyle stackpack main sail management system.

14. Free up the track and cart section to allow fully raising the main sail and service/lubricate all working deck

winches.

15. Resecure the loose bases of the lifeline stanchion posts in the deck sockets.

COMMENTS

Several large blisters were observed in the midship area below the waterline on the port side and should be

address when repainting the hull with a fresh application of antifouling bottom paint.

ADDITIONAL COMMENTS

The mandatory standards promulgated by the United States Coast Guard (USCG) under the authority of Title

46 United States Code, Code of Federal Regulations and the voluntary standards and recommended practices

developed by the American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) and the National Fire Protection Association

(NFPA) have been used as guidelines in the conduct of this survey.

The generator has been reported as inoperative with repairs not anticipated with removal of the unit

considered advisable and the present day market valve of the vessel adjusted accordingly.

[tikirawker]

thanks for the book references.
I will try and grab a copy of each.

as for the ready comment... I wasn't ready to kiss a girl for the first time, I wasn't ready to go to college, I wasn't ready to take on a managerial role, I wasn't ready to be a home owner.... but I was brave and made my way - there is no such thing a "ready".
I imagine the replacement/repairs are going to be more than expected - I ask the question not looking for the perfect answer but to gather several points of view and to learn.

[tikirawker]

Originally Posted by minaret

You should take a few dozen high res pics of the boat in question, all compartments and rigging included, and post them here. Then watch as the denizens of CF tear them apart like a flock of angry buzzards! They will blow up your pics and hunt down each and every flaw, I'm guessing. Probably be better than any possible survey.

hahaha agreed. One of the reasons i enjoy this forum is so many people provide so many different points of view. I did paste negatives of the survey below.

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by minaret

You should take a few dozen high res pics of the boat in question, all compartments and rigging included, and post them here. Then watch as the denizens of CF tear them apart like a flock of angry buzzards! They will blow up your pics and hunt down each and every flaw, I'm guessing. Probably be better than any possible survey.

Best advice here !!!!

For example... This is one of our regular posters who does absolutely meticulous professional work that none of us can even come close to duplicating...

In this example we caught him laying down a bed of Plexus to affix his helm seat pedestal... Which he undoubtedly purchased from either Ikea... Or Beneteau...

[Ribbit]

Well, given that there are bound to be some parts the surveyor was unable to survey . . . . .

Was he able to inspect the sails for example? They may be close to the end of their useful life, and replacements ain't cheap. A big factor too, is the size of the boat.

I've seen longer needs lists.

But some of those might prove to be rather expensive to resolve?

If you can get enough knocked off to cover uncertainties and worst case scenarios, get the blisters fully sorted on a complete hull basis (not a patchwork quilt leaving vulnerabilities between present blisters) with proper drying, repairing, fairing, and good barrier coating, sort the drive train including reconditioning the engine and ancillaries (I'd include the transmission too, as the engine neglect would suggest a transmission inspection and potential overhaul at the same time, might be a good idea), cost of shaft, gland, cutlass bearing and prop, etc. . . . .

Would it still be worth doing if the boat was given to you for free?

If the answer is a very positive 'yes', how much would you be prepared to pay, to reach the point of it being a 'slightly' positive yes?

Especially given that there are likely issues that haven't even been found yet?

There's a lot of truth in the old saying, that 80% of a secondhand boats value, is in the engine.

[GordMay]

We also look at the work to be done and can or can we not do it ourselves or can we help and if we help what is the discount for "free" labor.

When I quoted a fixed price, I often also added a postscript:
Add: 10% if you watch, 20% if you watch & ask questions, & 50% if you help.