How often is your insurer requesting a survey

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I provide information to NO ONE without written permission of the person that commissioned me.

Thanks BP. This is what I assumed would be the ethical, if not legal, standard. It certainly seems to be the one for most other legal trust relationship.

Given other responses though, I’m wondering if I need to include a clause in my next survey contract, stating no information can be shared with a 3rd party without my explicit permission.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Thanks BP. This is what I assumed would be the ethical, if not legal, standard. It certainly seems to be the one for most other legal trust relationship.

Given other responses though, I’m wondering if I need to include a clause in my next survey contract, stating no information can be shared with a 3rd party without my explicit permission.

I would have no issue signing off on that.

Another situation that arises almost weekly is a call from someone asking about a survey I had done previously (on a collapsed deal) and what could I tell them (had one of these two days ago).

I contact my client and ask permission to provide the caller with the clients contact info and recommend they sell the survey to the caller for a reduced rate (usually $100 - $150). If permission is granted I get back to the caller and tell him to call the client, purchase the survey then he is free to call me with any questions. The callers accept this idea 9 times out of 10.

The survey is a product owned by the client. He deserves the opportunity to recoup something by selling his product.

[Fore and Aft]

Mike it sounds like you want to rob a bank but beforehand you ask all the potential witnesses to sign a non disclosure statement? If you presented me with one I would walk away from the survey. Probably run considering how many times you have mentioned fraud in this forum! The potential legal bills after you drown someone or sell your dodgy boat would far out way any fee you give me.
To be clear I would not discuss your size 12 high heels or Pulp Fiction Gimp outfit I mistakenly find in one of your lockers. But I will discuss your boat if I have seen you fill it with Bondo then paint it over or if it mysteriously sinks after I have just surveyed it and all was fine.
Another thing Mike sailors and other marine professionals like to gossip and often I will get a warning about a boat that has issues before I even do the survey! Hell often if something is real dodgy I will go take walk by just to confirm the gossip!
The end of the day Mike like I said before I like to sleep at night and I have set of morals I live by.
Cheers

[hasse_A]

Hi all!

What if you only want third party liability ? Have they asked for a survey in that case ?

/Hans

[patja]

This has been educational and I will certainly put survey requirements on my list of questions to ask should I ever change insurers. I've had my boat 11 years now and have never been asked to re-survey it after the initial pre-purchase survey. I even called them up last year when I was re-rigging to ask if they wanted to specify any requirements for the new rig or see any evidence it had been replaced and they just said "nope, we're good." Then again, I am a coastal cruiser so maybe requirements vary by intended use and range.

[chavodelocho]

Hi All,

Any of you know how to deal to get an insurance about a Salvage sailcat in BVI?...

Any idea,Insurance company suggestions,whatever...

All the Best.

chavo

[patmvcr]

A survey was required for my latest renewal (coming up next week). First time this has been required since I bought the boat in 2006 (it is a 2003 model). I was notified of this at the last renewal.

Insurance:
Two weeks ago, my agent called me to ask if the survey had been done prior to submitting the renewal paperwork. I told her that I had scheduled the survey for this past week. I was then told that most underwriters were requesting an out of water survey now. I insisted that I had understood an in water survey was all that was required... and she agreed to scout around to see if they could find an underwriter that would accept this. I am now with another company (Intact) as the last one (Lifeline) no longer insure boats.

The Survey:
I used the same company who surveyed the boat for my purchase. I had wanted this so that he had all of the original information on the boat and some familiarity with it. I also wanted to pick his brains on a few things... since I had done some (mostly internal/cosmetic) changes to the boat since I bought it. I was quite happy to have the survey done. The guy was very helpful. Call it a refresher course on how to maintain the boat or whatever. He let me know that I had been very lucky having gone so long with out a survey request. Industry standard is 6 years. He also said I was lucky that the boat was post 2000.. as older boats were facing more strict survey requirements. He also said a lot of insurance companies are taking a closer look at the marine insurance business in light of the huge number of claims following the hurricane disasters of the past few years because they were not sufficiently covered (from an actuarial standpoint) for the actual risks.

My take on this:
1 - Find a good surveyor and rather than taking the survey grudgingly, use his/her knowledge to better yours. Make sure you are present during the survey to ask (and answer) questions. You're paying for the survey... use it!
2 - A lot of the discussion in this thread seems to be with respect to insurance claims for total loss.... but that is not all you are being insured for. A poorly maintained boat can suffer much less than being a write-off. Many smaller claims are being made and I am guessing this is the bulk of the payouts made by the insurance companies.
3 - Ask of your agent that you be kept informed of the current trends in the underwriters' demands so that you can coordinate surveys into your haul out schedule. I haul out every 3 years.. and if an out of water survey is to be required I would like to know that well in advance so I can plan the survey at every haul out if this is to be required on a 5 year interval. For me, a haul out is almost as expensive as a survey.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Mike it sounds like you want to rob a bank but beforehand you ask all the potential witnesses to sign a non disclosure statement? If you presented me with one I would walk away from the survey. Probably run considering how many times you have mentioned fraud in this forum! The potential legal bills after you drown someone or sell your dodgy boat would far out way any fee you give me.
To be clear I would not discuss your size 12 high heels or Pulp Fiction Gimp outfit I mistakenly find in one of your lockers. But I will discuss your boat if I have seen you fill it with Bondo then paint it over or if it mysteriously sinks after I have just surveyed it and all was fine.
Another thing Mike sailors and other marine professionals like to gossip and often I will get a warning about a boat that has issues before I even do the survey! Hell often if something is real dodgy I will go take walk by just to confirm the gossip!
The end of the day Mike like I said before I like to sleep at night and I have set of morals I live by.
Cheers

Wow... I’m not quite sure how to respond to this. I explicitly did not attack you for your unethical behaviour and breach of trust, but since you’ve chosen to libel me, I no longer feel the need to hold back.

I think any reasonable person would expect to be entering into a trust relationship with the surveyor THEY hire. Yet from your completely voluntary disclosures, it seems you put the interests of a 3rd party (the insurance company) ahead of your actual client.

I was shocked to see your statements about providing more information to an insurance company without the consent or knowledge of your client. It had never even occurred to me that this could happen, so I thank you for your honesty. You indicated in your response that you are “...not sure what the legality/ethics are on this issue.” I can tell you this is certainly a breach of ethical trust, whether it reaches to the level of a legal breach is unclear, but I am surprised you don’t know, and don’t seem to care.

If this is indeed common practice in the surveyor world, then you’ve done everyone a great service by disclosing it. A simple insert into any contract stating that 'no 3rd party disclosures can happen without the client's explicit consent' will now be my standard. Or better yet, we should all chose to work with ethical surveyors, such as the other example provided here in this thread.

P.S. Please provide us with your actual business name. It’s not just surveyors who “gossip.” Clients also share the word about dubious surveyors.

[garyfrankovich]

I'm an AMS here in Florida and I find that most insurance companies are requiring surveys every three (3) years, especially for boats more than 20 years old.

[jvolpehoo]

The initial survey mandated by my BoatUS insurance carrier was a complete joke. The surveyor noted many non-material problems (what 38 year old fiberglass boat doesn't have moisture?) and even though he ran my diesel did not identify that one cylinder was not firing. He handed me a book of disclaimers saying I should have the electrics, engine, rigging - every system -inspected by licensed electricians, plumbers etc. no value here.

My impression is that the surveyor guild is a racket and the insurers aren't getting their moneys worth. I sure didn't. Boat Insurers should send out their own inspectors.

[Jimmyhenry]

In New Zealand. Our insurer requires an “insurance “ survey every five years. It is out of water and includes detailing all the gear. Very comprehensive checklist.

[Buzzman]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

OK, so it’s fraud. It’s not the insured value. It’s the idea that over-insured value promotes fraud. Got it.

Mike it's not just that it promotes fraud, it is that such frauds then drive up the premium price, industry wide, as insurers need to 'earn' more in order to offset their *increased* losses (from fraud).

If marine insurers suffered only ONE (annualised) total loss for $200K, this would be bearable on their bottom line. But if several claims for $200K land together, it can upset the applecart.

This by the way is why insurance claims everywhere are on the increase, due to the increase in storm-activity-related damages claims being on the increase due to climate change and its effect on weather systems. Increased frequency of - and increased severity of - weather events.

Actuaries base their premium charge calculations on historical data - as that data set is now out of date, insurers are increasingly nervous of potential future losses, and so are backing in "insurance on insurance" into their premiums.

This is a BAD thing for anyone wanting a "fair" price on their boat's insurance.

It's why LEO's on land are so hot on 'rebirthing' of automobiles, for example, and why we have things like VINs to ID vehicles (and now HINs for boats).

It's to help prevent fraud and thus reduce overall costs of insurance to individual policy holders.

Thus, the biennial or triennial survey seeks to reduce the risk for the insurance company, and thus reduce the policy ofr the individual owner.

But I concur, it is a cost for *them* and thus should be borne by them.

But this in turn would result in increased premiums for ALL insureds, so it's better to bite the bullet and pay for a survey, and thus reduce the individual premium on your boat, than to pay an increased premium thanks to an 'absorbed cost of survey' for ALL boats.

At least, that's my take on it. And I have been known to be wrong. YMMV.

[secrabtree]

THE INSURANCE. And you know what happens when the party being served is not the party paying for the service.

As a business owner you don’t demand that your customer fund your proposal costs, do you? That would be like me demanding my publishers pay for me researching and writing my next story (Isn't that what's called an "advance"?) That would be great, but that’s not typically how businesses operate. (Get an estimate for the repair of a Bose radio. Ask a doctor how much it will cost to fix your swolen calt - he'll charge for the exam.

I can get house insurance without a survey. I can get car insurance. Yes, I understand these are more mass-market items, but given the quality of most insurance surveys (yours excluded, I’m sure), it seems to me it’s more of a bureaucratic check box than a real value item. Yet it is a real cost, and an even bigger PITA to many boaters.[/QUOTE]

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I was shocked to see your statements about providing more information to an insurance company without the consent or knowledge of your client. It had never even occurred to me that this could happen

Mike: FYI SAMS is very strict about this, they do ethics courses for their surveyors and it has been reinforced at every SAMS meeting I ever attended and is mentioned in almost every SAMS newsletter I have ever seen. SAMS takes ethics very seriously to the chagrin of the odd one that has transgressed.

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Good question Mike, the way I see it the client has let me survey their boat and take a lot of photos of its condition. So if the insurance company requests some more information from me I am happy to give it. Often it can help settle a claim or just clarify an issue. I am not interested in helping a client commit fraud so I would rather assist the insurance company than hinder them. I am not sure what the legality/ethics are on this issue but I like to sleep at night.

Cheers

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Mike it sounds like you want to rob a bank but beforehand you ask all the potential witnesses to sign a non disclosure statement? If you presented me with one I would walk away from the survey. Probably run considering how many times you have mentioned fraud in this forum! The potential legal bills after you drown someone or sell your dodgy boat would far out way any fee you give me.
To be clear I would not discuss your size 12 high heels or Pulp Fiction Gimp outfit I mistakenly find in one of your lockers. But I will discuss your boat if I have seen you fill it with Bondo then paint it over or if it mysteriously sinks after I have just surveyed it and all was fine.
Another thing Mike sailors and other marine professionals like to gossip and often I will get a warning about a boat that has issues before I even do the survey! Hell often if something is real dodgy I will go take walk by just to confirm the gossip!
The end of the day Mike like I said before I like to sleep at night and I have set of morals I live by.
Cheers

As far as i'm concerned you have not shot yourself in the foot with these statements, you have blown your whole leg off lol