How often is your insurer requesting a survey

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Indeed, maybe that would happen. Might create some good jobs with good pay and benefits. Unfortunately with full time employees they’d need far fewer surveyors overall.

I charge the same for a pre-purchase and an insurance survey becaus I treat them exactly the same.

I don't really care it they need fewer surveyors to scrable at the bottom. There are large insurance adjusters companies in Ontario who have in house surveyors. Each and everyone of them has dimploma mill credentials and works for about $45k per year. I haven't worked for that kind of money since the mid 70's. They are most welcome to it.

[Fore and Aft]

Boatpoker I was thinking around 120g a year, comapny car, pension plan, health insurance and four weeks vacation. Plus the big bonus is a secretary who deals with all the BS and just emails me a time and place to be.
Cheers

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

This is the whole problem Mike, you tell the client that you need to charge more becuase they now need a proper survey yet the client is like you have all the information it can't really cost anymore to put it in a proper format.
So then the client bad mouths you to anyone who listens about you overcharging them for a simple survey. (I have had it happen)
As for the insurance company I like to keep them happy as a fair bit of my work comes from insurance companys and really its just their incompetent form that is at fault. I have all information and I am not interested in helping an owner commit a potential fraud.
So Mike as much as everyone seems to dislike surveyors, some days I just want to go home and have a couple of strong rums before I start running around screaming.
Cheers

I don’t envy you. Sounds like a tough business. And lest you think otherwise, I truly value good surveys and surveyors. I’ve commissioned my own surveys for my own benefit, without any demand from insurance companies. It’s not surveyors that I dislike, it’s the whole insurance survey process that has me pissed off.

But since I’m chatting with two professional surveyors, I am curious about the ethical, and perhaps even legal, responsibilities you work under. How can you respond to a third party (insurance company) when they ask for further information about a survey? If the client is the boat owner, do you have to get the permission of the boat owner (the original client) before handing over more information?

[Fore and Aft]

Good question Mike, the way I see it the client has let me survey their boat and take a lot of photos of its condition. So if the insurance company requests some more information from me I am happy to give it. Often it can help settle a claim or just clarify an issue. I am not interested in helping a client commit fraud so I would rather assist the insurance company than hinder them. I am not sure what the legality/ethics are on this issue but I like to sleep at night.

Cheers

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Sounds like you don’t believe in capitalism.

I suggest you research what capitalism is. Not the political debates and contortions but the actual meaning. It implies a level playing field, not a single controller of the market.

Monopolies and cartels have more in common with socialism than they do with capitalism. Socialism and monopolies imply a single overseer controlling the market. In theory, socialism's leader has the good of the people in mind but looking at history...more often than not, they have their own self interests at heart.

Walmart does benefit from economy of scale but they are not a monopoly....Meijer, Target, Koles and a number of other department stores are constantly nipping at their heels and keeping them honest (plus internet providers)...Kmart & Woolworth used to be big players and got sloppy and now they are gone but there are other chains ready to step in.

It does make sense in some industries to allow a regulated monopoly. The cost to run multiple parallel systems is so expensive that it makes sense to allow a monopoly but then it operates under heavy regulation...it's a bit of a deal with the devil as there is little incentive to keep operating costs down but even with inflated operating costs it's still cheaper than running multiple systems. Utility companies being the most common.

In the case of surveys, there is need for a utility style regulated monopoly and it would only drive up costs.

[Mike OReilly]

Val, you’re the one that is making the monopoly claim. I didn’t, and don’t accept your supposition. There’s no reason to think the insurance industry will suddenly become a monopoly simply b/c they adopt the change I’m suggesting.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Val, you’re the one that is making the monopoly claim. I didn’t, and don’t accept your supposition. There’s no reason to think the insurance industry will suddenly become a monopoly simply b/c they adopt the change I’m suggesting.

OK, not a monopoly...a cartel.

If the insurance companies all get together and decide they are doing the surveys themselves and agree to standards and methods...that means as a group they control the industry or at least enough that it eliminates competition.

If you are thinking one insurance company would take it on by themselves, they would get slaughtered on the open market as their prices would be substantially higher due to including both the survey and the management of the survey...plus the angry customers when they are forced to cancel a trip because the insurance company scheduled a survey that week. Simply not going to happen.

[lovinlifebda]

OP here. I went back to my broker and asked for a 4 year term for our survey. Got a very blunt reply that they only deal with first class insurers and that no, they will not extend the term.
So, if anyone who is very happy with their broker would like to offer up their name I would be quite thankful to test our options with someone more helpful. Either by PM or posting. We are Canadian with a Canadian registered boat living full time in the Eastern Caribbean, these circumstances can matter. Some Canadian insurers for example say they can’t help us because we don’t have a home in Canada. Thanks all

[belizesailor]

Ive been asked about once every 5 years in the past, but with all the changes in marine insurance recently that may change.

I had to get a new one to go liabilty only, but it was at the 5 year mark anyway. Fortunately the boat was already out of the water, and the same surveyor friend who did the last one was able to just revise his previous survey so he was gentle on the price.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Last time my insurance anted a survey I asked if I could do it myself. They spent me a form for want they wanted checked and various photos of stuff they wanted.

Never would have known it was possible if I hadn’t asked.

Interesting, Ive always been told a liscenced surveyor was required.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by lovinlifebda

OP here. I went back to my broker and asked for a 4 year term for our survey. Got a very blunt reply that they only deal with first class insurers and that no, they will not extend the term.
So, if anyone who is very happy with their broker would like to offer up their name I would be quite thankful to test our options with someone more helpful. Either by PM or posting. We are Canadian with a Canadian registered boat living full time in the Eastern Caribbean, these circumstances can matter. Some Canadian insurers for example say they can’t help us because we don’t have a home in Canada. Thanks all

I have used these guys in the past. They would insure my Canadian boat in the USA for a season, but not if I permanently docked there.

Digby NS Insurance Agency, Nova Scotia Home Insurance, Nova Scotia Auto Insurance, Nova Scotia Business Insurance | Fairway Insurance

[Metal Boat]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

The only possible difference I can see is mismatched real vs insured value could be an indicator of potential future fraud … that I could understand.

Over insured boats cultivate fraud. The acutaries know this and can probably predict the rates at which it will occur.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Metal Boat

Over insured boats cultivate fraud. The acutaries know this and can probably predict the rates at which it will occur.

Yep, 10-20% over is likely just a guy trying to make sure he gets a fair payout IF something happens and likely has a low probability of a claim (let's say 10% in a 5yr period for calculation purposes). Someone 1000% over is probably better than 90% chance he's going to have a big claim as there is no other reason to pay so much extra...plus for the same model/age, the 2nd boat is likely in wildly worse condition and much more likely to have a non-fraud related claim.

So if two boats are insured for $200k agreed value but one is really worth $180k and the other is worth $20k...

Sure the premiums are the same (as some would suggest) but the average payout is wildly different:

Risk 1 = 10% * $200k = $20k
Risk 2 = 90% * $200k = $180k

If I own the insurance company, I sure don't want to issue insurance for the second option at the same price as the first.

[Mike OReilly]

You’re funny Val. Any other numbers and suppositions you want to pull out of the air?

Show me the data that supports your 10%, your 90% and your assumption that lesser value boats are riskier boats.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I don’t envy you. Sounds like a tough business. And lest you think otherwise, I truly value good surveys and surveyors. I’ve commissioned my own surveys for my own benefit, without any demand from insurance companies. It’s not surveyors that I dislike, it’s the whole insurance survey process that has me pissed off.

But since I’m chatting with two professional surveyors, I am curious about the ethical, and perhaps even legal, responsibilities you work under. How can you respond to a third party (insurance company) when they ask for further information about a survey? If the client is the boat owner, do you have to get the permission of the boat owner (the original client) before handing over more information?

I provide information to NO ONE without written permission of the person that commissioned me.