How Much Sail Is Too Much ?

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Ocean sailing with a genoa poled out is a definite NO from me. A jib poled out is just marginally better. A staysail on a cutter rigged boat is fine, except staysails are often pretty smallish ...

Unless the jibs are special cut and the poles are very long. Then it is a huge YES.
b.

Why do you say this? I'm curious. Downwind, wing and wing with the main and a poled-out genoa is one of my favorite configurations. It's better with a long whisker pole, but even with the shorter spinnaker pole it's good. Depending on the point of sail when using a spin pole I may partially furl the genoa.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by jobi

When crusing what is your plan...

CRUISING is the key word to me in the orginal question. My plan is:
- a main that can be reefed easy and has at least 2 reef points.
- a 130% genny on a roller that is designed to hold reasonable shape when furled/reefed
- an assymetrical spinnaker/cruising chute with proper deck hardware to lanauch and fly it easily so that it doesn't just set in the bag.

All those extra sails that are "of use" in some unsual conditions 0.2% percent of time, have to be stored in the boat 99.8% of the time taking up space that can be better used. I have 6 extra sails in my basement that in my "inventory". I have 1 symemertical spinnaker on the boat (another in the basement) that I mostly have to move from place to place based on company to get out of the way because I only fly it if only to be on that track for hours because it's such a pain to get it out and up (but it makes a great difference once up).

So to me you should just get the basics and learn how best to use them for you and your boat.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

CRUISING is the key word to me in the orginal question. My plan is:
- a main that can be reefed easy and has at least 2 reef points.
- a 130% genny on a roller that is designed to hold reasonable shape when furled/reefed
- an assymetrical spinnaker/cruising chute with proper deck hardware to lanauch and fly it easily so that it doesn't just set in the bag.

All those extra sails that are "of use" in some unsual conditions 0.2% percent of time, have to be stored in the boat 99.8% of the time taking up space that can be better used.

I agree with this attitude - simple set up that covers max of the wind range.

For those who do not care for an asymmetric the option is to go for a light genoa on the furler and a much smaller stronger jib on the inner stay.

b.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

Why do you say this? I'm curious. Downwind, wing and wing with the main and a poled-out genoa is one of my favorite configurations. It's better with a long whisker pole, but even with the shorter spinnaker pole it's good. Depending on the point of sail when using a spin pole I may partially furl the genoa.

Which crossings are you talking about?

I said that because I have seen too many boats trying to sail wing and wing with those huge, overlap, too heavy genoas so common today and a standard (spinnaker) pole. This makes the genoa trim angle way too inboard for any decent pull and roll is accelerated. Mind you that very many modern boats have swept spreaders too - so the main will be also over-trimmed. The above is a very, very poor set up for e.g. the ARC run (much downwind sailing and often plenty of nasty swell).

I think (In fact, I know - limited as I might be by my experience) that the way to fly a sail in wing and wing config is by using a light jib or genoa poled out way forward - but it takes an extra long spar (of whatever name) to achieve this with a genoa. And if we furl the genoa then yes it will set nicely but at much less adequate angle than can be achieved with a smaller jib set with its tack closer inboard.

We must remember the main/genoa thing is meant for upwind work, not long downwind passages. Just have a look at tea clippers...

To make a long story short - it is good the way you like it but there are better (meaning - more efficient and comfortable) ways on other boats.

barnie

[Weyalan]

Obviously opinions differ, but on our boat, sailing short handed, "wing on wing" (aka "goose winging") with a spinnaker pole works really well. My preferred option is probably #2 or #3... #1 is a little too big for comfort, and #4 is too short in the foot compared to the spinnaker pole. Because we don't have a snuffer, setting and dousing a spinnaker with only 2 people on board can be a handful and is basically a no-no in above about 10 knots of breeze. Poling out the 2 or 3 is a pretty confortable way to travel... for us, anyway.

[barnakiel]

I do not think it is the opinions that make the difference as much as experiences. Mine is from a small long keel boat on the trade wind route.

I have also sailed big boats that do not roll so horribly running wing and wing, but still they are very inefficient sailed this way and, generally, are not sailed this way.

But I am a great admirer of the 'reverse' jibs way - two jibs set with their luffs along the mast and poled out. I have tried this out on a small boat and now want to make at least past of our next passage this way (as long as I can put my hands on another 'short' jib. In fact this is also wing and wing although the other wing is not the main but rather another jib.

b.

[Weyalan]

Actually, barnakiel, I do agree with you, and indeed, running deep downwind is an inefficent mode of sail and "heating it up" a bit does provide good results in both boatspeed and comfort. I'd much rather broad reach than run. But, if running ddw is what has to be done, poling out a headsail is more attractive for me, sailing 2 up on a race boat than wrassling a big spinnaker (unless breeze is under 10 and gonna stay that way)

[otherthan]

I plan to use a 110% jib on furler and a seconde line beside the furler for a genoa or storm jib?

basicly your saying that with an other 110% jib I cauld go wing on wing without the main and have a more comfy ride??

oh by the way I do have a whisker and a spinaker pole with all the sails to go with them.

[Weyalan]

I think the point of carrying two poled out headsails downwind, instead of 1 poled out headsail and 1 mainsail, wing on wins, is that you move the centre of effort way forward, so that you are seenetially getting pulled along by the 2 headsails, rather than pulled by the headsail and pushed by the main. There would be much less chance of an unplanned jibe or broach with this configuration.

[Jim Cate]

G'Day All,

A couple of thoughts on this DDW stuff...

On our previous boat (the first real Insatiable) which was an IOR MkII one tonner with all the nasties that implies we did thousands of miles wing and wing with a poled out genoa. She did roll some, but sailed quickly and in good control. Another system we used in light condx was to set a second genoa, pole out the windward one, put two reefs in the main to flatten it out and sheet it amidships as a roll dampener. This got nearly as much sail area up as our kite with much less work. We didn't have a furler, but did have a foil that allowed setting a second headsail easily. So Barnie, I can't agree that these sorts of setups are so bad as you say... worked well for us, anyhow!

Now on I-2, which is a more modern hull shape, fractional rig w/ sweptback spreaders, we still often go wing and wing when sailing deep. Yes, the main isn't trimmed out all the way, but with a 120% gennie on the roller it works well indeed despite the theoretical faults. We've hit much higher speeds (best yet is 15.6 kts) than with the kite, because as Weyalan says, setting it in much breeze with only 2 on board is too scary for us. Interestingly, we also often use the poled out genoa as far up as ~100 deg apparent. Requires rolling a couple of rolls in to keep the shape, but it seems to be about as fast as conventional trimming, and in situations where the wind is oscillating a lot it saves lots of deck work.

And Jobi, do note that folks have used two jibs set on the forestay with sheets run to the tiller as an effective self steering setup when sailing quite deep. The Hiscocks were admirers of this practice.

We know that sailing near DDW is not the fastest way to get downwind, but sometimes external factors demand that course, and sometimes the extra effort involved in frequent gybing as one "tacks" downwind outweigh the greater VMG acheived.

Finally, until you have sailed a bunch of miles in your Hinterholler you won't know just what works best for her. Boats really are different in the way they behave at sea, and they don't always seem to follow theory.

Good luck with your sailing when spring arrives.

Cheers,

Jim and Ann S/v Insatiable II lying Gladstone Qld, Oz, en route to Tassie again!

[SurferShane]

I discovered exactly how much sail area was too much a few days back when this gust of wind funnelled down a gorge onto a protected part of the Hawkesbury estuary knocking my boat over. It hit with vengeance and was the longest she has ever been on her side other than being grounded. Luckily the only damage seems to be the loss of my mobile phone overboard in its waterproof container. I really wish I could find somewhere around here that sells shark clips so I could have secured it. Strange thing is that I wish I had the mizzen up as I am sure it might have helped turn the boat into the wind?

On the way back up the coast I was playing with lee and weather helm experimenting with exactly what amount of sail would let the boat trim along happily without putting pressure on the auto pilot. A bit of weather helm might have been giving me a extra knot or so, but cruising it seems a lot more sensible to take the pressure off the gear and have a relaxing passage where the boat basically steers itself?