How much does a Shoal Draft Keel affect Blue water sailing?

[Quebramar]

Originally Posted by deluxe68

I personally prefer not to have a winged keel for cruising, especially if we ever get stuck in mud or a reef.

[emoji106]
Not to mention fishing pots quite popular in the Channel... t-shape bulleted and winged keels are at a disadvantage in such places... [emoji45]

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Nothing wrong with your thinking as if you are going upwind in reasonably strong winds offshore it's best to foot off and slow down a little so your riding over the waves rather than punching into them. A deep draft boat will have a much better vmg than a shallow draft in these conditions because when your sailing as high as you can in a shallow draft the deep keel is actually on a close reach. The shallow draft has even more leeway in these conditions so the difference between the boats is probably closer to 10 plus degrees. Yes I know gentlemen don't sail to windward but if your heading home from Hawaii you'll sail for around 5 days hard on the wind before being able to foot off. I've made that trip too many times to not know how one boat reacts compared to another. In the end everyone makes it, for some it's just easier. One other thing, shallow draft boats do their best sailing upwind as fast as they are able, this gives them their best vmg but when you slow them down as you would in the open ocean in stronger breezes they go upwind like a straw bale.
Right now we are sailing a shoal draft boat with a Scheel Keel, one of the better ones but my friend with exactly the same boat but a deep keel kills us going upwind offshore. Personally i prefer deep draft boats if you delight in sailing they just sail better but but we chose the boat by a different criteria and the keel just went with an otherwise very nice boat, we would do the same...the keel is secondary in my opinion.

If I won the lottery I would have my Scheel keel swapped with a deep keel. But as it is I can think of lots of other things to do with $45,000.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by deluxe68

If I won the lottery I would have my Scheel keel swapped with a deep keel. But as it is I can think of lots of other things to do with $45,000.

[double u]

I doubt this figure a bit
the other day a new keel (in lead) for a salona 41 was abt €8500 according to the builders

[overthehorizon]

For 5 years I lived on a shoal draft boat and sailed it around the world....NEVER again will I have a shoal draft boat. With the sails up and moving, it was not bad but at anchor the boat would not stop rocking! A lot of time was spent researching and making "rocker stoppers". In one, not so flat calm anchorage, I had to go and sleep on a friends boat. It was not just my boat, but other long range cruising boats with short keels I saw had the same problem at anchor. On a windy day, with waves rolling in, watch all the anchored boats and you will see some that sway side to side more than others. Once you buy such a miserable boat, you are stuck! I would not want a boat with deeper than a 6' keel as that would really limit where you go in the Bahamas and could cause a crunch in some atolls in the Pacific.

[Lionelsole]

Originally Posted by overthehorizon

For 5 years I lived on a shoal draft boat and sailed it around the world....NEVER again will I have a shoal draft boat. With the sails up and moving, it was not bad but at anchor the boat would not stop rocking! A lot of time was spent researching and making "rocker stoppers". In one, not so flat calm anchorage, I had to go and sleep on a friends boat. It was not just my boat, but other long range cruising boats with short keels I saw had the same problem at anchor. On a windy day, with waves rolling in, watch all the anchored boats and you will see some that sway side to side more than others. Once you buy such a miserable boat, you are stuck! I would not want a boat with deeper than a 6' keel as that would really limit where you go in the Bahamas and could cause a crunch in some atolls in the Pacific.

Hmmm. How do you define ‘shoal draft ‘? My Dufour 40 is the shoal draft version drawing 5’6”. Doesn’t leave a lot of space between your concept of misery and a 6 ft coral cruncher.

[double u]

draft is just one parameter affecting rolling characteristics. deadrise, beam, metacentric heigth, hight of cog, ..
the old S&S designs rolled terribly deep-reaching, & not for want of draft...

[redsky49]

Originally Posted by overthehorizon

For 5 years I lived on a shoal draft boat and sailed it around the world....NEVER again will I have a shoal draft boat. With the sails up and moving, it was not bad but at anchor the boat would not stop rocking! A lot of time was spent researching and making "rocker stoppers". In one, not so flat calm anchorage, I had to go and sleep on a friends boat. It was not just my boat, but other long range cruising boats with short keels I saw had the same problem at anchor. On a windy day, with waves rolling in, watch all the anchored boats and you will see some that sway side to side more than others. Once you buy such a miserable boat, you are stuck! I would not want a boat with deeper than a 6' keel as that would really limit where you go in the Bahamas and could cause a crunch in some atolls in the Pacific.

Hmm... I can't say that I have experienced that. Perhaps your boat was particularly sensitive?

[NYSail]

My old boat..... 1986 Pearson 36-2 was the shoal draft with centerboard design (4’2” / 8’) and I never suffered from that..... in fact was quite comfortable on anchor / mooring. Always pointed into the wind with minimal swing. Guess design of hull and other specs has a lot to do with it.
Greg

[hpeer]

If you wander through some good sized boatyards you will start to notice there are about a zillion different keel designs. But pretty much all of the boats sitting on the keels have successfully traveled some distance.

From this I’ve derived that keel design, excepting serious racers, is an over blown topic.

We have two boats: 6’6” and 5’4”. We get around OK with both. We have had the bigger 6’ 6” boat in the Bahamas and not felt disadvantaged. All be it we are Steel and don’t sweat running aground much. Which brings up bigger issues.

If you boat has a DELICATE keel where every time you touch bottom you have to haul and inspect then you need to be concerned about draft. If you have a more stout boat that can take to the bottom comfortably then draft is not much of an issue.

We have come down the ICW with 6’6” draft and 63’ air draft. It’s a PITA but doable. There are a couple of places in the ICW that are 6’6” only because I have been there at low tide. It encourages me to run off shore, which I prefer to dicking with the tides and bridges.

As to the keys and Bahamas the better solution is to make sure you have a darn good dingy, then anchor anywhere you like. And avoid the noise of the maddening crowd at the “beach party.”

Where I did find draft a restriction was on the Erie Canal. I got through with 5’4” but just barley. Also if I wanted to do the French canals then even 5’4” is a bit much. Not much you can do about that.

As you get used to sailing and living on the boat you will find some things you never considered become very important, other issues will drop out of sight. At this moment you have a vision, as you gain experience you will develop definite preferences. For example we found having a sizable aft cabin, which forced us to a center cockpit, became a big issue.

Running aground and having to check keel bolts could become a big issue.

[NYSail]

Ha love it.... avoid the maddening crowd at the beach parties. I’m here for solitude please! Next investment is that improved dinghy.

[WingRyder]

Originally Posted by hpeer

If you wander through some good sized boatyards you will start to notice there are about a zillion different keel designs. But pretty much all of the boats sitting on the keels have successfully traveled some distance.

From this I’ve derived that keel design, excepting serious racers, is an over blown topic.

We have two boats: 6’6” and 5’4”. We get around OK with both. We have had the bigger 6’ 6” boat in the Bahamas and not felt disadvantaged. All be it we are Steel and don’t sweat running aground much. Which brings up bigger issues.

If you boat has a DELICATE keel where every time you touch bottom you have to haul and inspect then you need to be concerned about draft. If you have a more stout boat that can take to the bottom comfortably then draft is not much of an issue.

We have come down the ICW with 6’6” draft and 63’ air draft. It’s a PITA but doable. There are a couple of places in the ICW that are 6’6” only because I have been there at low tide. It encourages me to run off shore, which I prefer to dicking with the tides and bridges.

As to the keys and Bahamas the better solution is to make sure you have a darn good dingy, then anchor anywhere you like. And avoid the noise of the maddening crowd at the “beach party.”

Where I did find draft a restriction was on the Erie Canal. I got through with 5’4” but just barley. Also if I wanted to do the French canals then even 5’4” is a bit much. Not much you can do about that.

As you get used to sailing and living on the boat you will find some things you never considered become very important, other issues will drop out of sight. At this moment you have a vision, as you gain experience you will develop definite preferences. For example we found having a sizable aft cabin, which forced us to a center cockpit, became a big issue.

Running aground and having to check keel bolts could become a big issue.

Thanks! Great post. That durable keel makes a lot of sense, especially in shallow water areas. I would obviously need a dinghy for a cruising boat anyway. I envision having it stowed onboard, or in Davits for crossings, but when island hopping, it may be more convenient to tow it. In any case, from what I can see, there are very few places where I would want to go in the Carib, that I would have to anchor at a prohibitive distance from the shore... with a 5ish foot draft.

As to beach parties, I agree with you. I'm certainly no curmudgeon, but sometimes I like my peace and quiet.

[edgaroviz]

If you ask me the build of the boat matters more, i sailed on a newer boats from my school like bavarias and jen/benne boats and they all feel like plastic floating of the water, my neighbors boats like doufur and moodies are kind of the same... But on older heavier boats everything feels different.
For example on my mariner with a fin keel(1.7m deep) which weighs around 12 tonne fully loaded the pointing abilities of the boat feel completely different and when sailing the boat it moves only up and down and not side to side.
Also it's worth considering how high the deck is from the water line, when a boat is high enough so the deck won't sink is the water when leaning it's a completely different feeling when sailing.
About center cockpit boats... Personally I like this kind of design a lot, as a liveaboard I like having a large aft cabin and a big engine room under the cockpit, this changes the layout completely, but being in the middle of the boat when sailing changes everything.

In short I would definitely recommend considering a boat by it's build quality and not the year it was made. All these bavarias, jan/benne are plastic boats I wouldn't want to own... But to each his own.

[NormanMartin]

The point about a boat that doesn't roll at anchor is valid. I ran a 38 footer that had the worst transom slap ever. The boat would shudder and the noise was wakening. Not things that are as relevant offshore while sailing as near shore when not sailing.

Draft matters most when going to windward.

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by overthehorizon

For 5 years I lived on a shoal draft boat and sailed it around the world....NEVER again will I have a shoal draft boat. With the sails up and moving, it was not bad but at anchor the boat would not stop rocking! A lot of time was spent researching and making "rocker stoppers". In one, not so flat calm anchorage, I had to go and sleep on a friends boat. It was not just my boat, but other long range cruising boats with short keels I saw had the same problem at anchor. On a windy day, with waves rolling in, watch all the anchored boats and you will see some that sway side to side more than others. Once you buy such a miserable boat, you are stuck! I would not want a boat with deeper than a 6' keel as that would really limit where you go in the Bahamas and could cause a crunch in some atolls in the Pacific.

I think there is a lot more to it than just the draft of the boat. We did a RTW on our Bristol 45.5 with centreboard (5' up/12' down) and when anchored, board up of course, we were always one of the most stable boats in any anchorage. This could be because of heavy displacement (close to 40,000 pounds loaded) or the very full bilge shapes that Ted Hood put in the design. Slack bilge shapes and higher weight would make any boat more of a roller.