How many winches is enough?

[Dsalvail]

My friend... I understand your predicament; I started acting upon my long-lived interest in sailboats about 6 years ago, thanks to my wife buying me a long course in sailing. As a relative newbie, I understand that you sometimes need to oversimplify things and work your way up the complexity ladder.

I've now sailed on dozens of sloops, size ranging from 28 to 46 feet. They all have the basic setup: headsail, main sail. Battened or furling main, self-tacking or simple headsail, it doesn't matter: you want at least a winch for the main sail (two is better), and a couple of winches for your headsail, one on each side of the boat.

That's it. Anything more complicated is for people who know more than we do.

You and I will work our way to more complex setups one day, but 3-4 winches will get you a long way.

Rope clutches are your friend: They allow to set things up, and take the sheets off the winch, and use the winch for other sheets. Take your main sail: you'll need the halyard on the winch to hoist up your sail. Close the clutch on that, and you can remove the halyard from your winch. Slip on the mainsheet and you've gotten away with that one winch.

A second winch is handy to reef your sail in a hurry. To hoist your headsail, to adjust tension on the headsail, etc. Again, a good rope clutch allows you to move sheets around a single winch.

The head sail, you'll be swinging from side to side every time you tack, and I like to keep my sheets on two separate winches by the helm. No rope clutch there.

And there you have it: two winches (I like cabin-tops for the main sail work) with a multi-rope clutch each, and two smaller winches by the helm in the back, and you can sail shorthanded. For newbies like us, that's all you really need.

Have fun, and stay safe.

[noelex 77]

It very much depends on the set up, but cruising yachts are generally better with more winches. Boatbuilders like to use fewer winches because winches are expensive. Also note that suitably sized winches are more expensive than smaller winches. The same is true of clutches. Many yachts are fitted with clutches that are marginal at best for the expected loads.

[houseofcharm]

And usually, according to most, one wench is enough.

[Dsalvail]

Hey, I agree completely with everything that has been mentioned in this thread.

My point is that less experienced sailors such as myself need to learn the ropes before we consider complicated setups. Are 6 winches with mast-mounted units better than a simple 2+2 winch setup? Probably. But you need to have sailed enough to know when the extra two winches are needed, and establish if you'll need those 2 winches in the specific conditions you'll encounter.

I sail on Lake Champlain, North-East USA. A wonderful, calm and large body of water. I sure do not need mast-mounted units to handle Lake Champlain weather! Island-hopping in the Caribbean's, or crossing the Gulf Stream parallel to the coast, there are times when I'd have traded the rope clutches for winch, yes.

[Mickeyrouse]

To begin with, you have to decide how each rope ( line) is going to be handled. Letting those ropes( lines) out is the easy part. Pulling( drawing) them in is the burdensome part. If you have a 20 ft boat like my first ( 40+ years ago) you don’t really need any- raw unassisted muscle power from a strapping young sailor will do it. If or when your boat is larger, mechanically assisted power- winches, usually, these days- will become more important for efficient sail trim. My 26 ft boat had 2 sheet winches and 1 Hilliard winch. It could not have been efficiently sailed with less. The main was hoisted via winch, the jib was not. Had the halliards been led to the cockpit, line clutches could have winch use for both halliards.
Our next boat, a 30 footer had a similar set-up, though I added a 2nd halliard winch.
Our present boat is a comparative quantum leap in sail handling complexity. She was originally set up for competition. And since she’s a yawl, well...
Here is her winch compliment, from aft forward: Two winches on the mizzen, halliard and sheet, though the mizzen at about 100 sq ft doesn’t really need a sheet winch. The mizzen halliard winch could probably be dispensed with too, because it’s real benefit is tensioning the luff after raising the sail. Next, P/S spinnaker sheet winches. We have never flown a spinnaker on this boat, but they get the very rare use when the mizzen staysail is set. Moving forward, the next pair of winches are really powerful Barient 2 speed 32’s.
On top of the house is the main sheet winch- sometimes I wish it was more powerful.
On the main boom is the reefing winch. It’s a cute little thing.
Finally, on the main mast are three halliard winches: main, Genoa, and spinnaker. The spinnaker winch could act as a back-up halliard.
There is a huge difference in muscle power required in hoisting and trimming sails on a 20 footer with 200 sq ft of sail versus a 41 ft boat with over a 1000 sq ft flying. In Nat Herreshoff’s day it was accomplished by multi-part block and tackle. It could be done today just as well, but by the time two-part tackle and appropriate amount of line is acquired, I doubt it would be much, it any, cheaper. Not to mention all that extra line on deck and in the cockpit when the line is drawn in.

[DougMc]

Originally Posted by floater88

I'm fresher than a newbie. Just started looking into sailboats for a possible retirement thingy. I keep seeing sailboats with 2 to 4 or even more winches. How many do I actually need? Is it solely dependent on number of sails?

It depends what kind of "retirement thingy" you are thinking about. My most fun boats don't have any winches and are raced "round the cans" with and against friends. Being connected to a good group of people is one thing I want to be sure I have when I retire...

[Beausoleil]

One more anecdote to add to the data accumulated here:

Beausoleil is a 1979 Formosa Ketch, with its requisite two masts (main and mizzen), staysail and headsail (which are on line-controlled furlers).

Unlike modern sloop or cutter-rigged boats, we don't have the side deck space to run all the lines back to the cockpit, so we compromise by mounting some at the two masts. The main mast has mast pulpits ("granny bars") for safety while working at the mast in heavy seas.

On the main mast are 3 winches:

• Port winch & 4 rope clutches for:
  • main halyard
  • boom topping lift
  • spinnaker/whisker pole topping lift
  • spinnaker/whisker pole track car lift
• Starboard winch & 4 rope clutches for:
  • staysail halyard
  • headsail halyard
  • spinnaker halyard
  • spare main halyard
• Under-boom winch & 4 boom-mounted clutches for
  • main outhaul
  • main reefing lines
  • main-boom vang line (which is thru a 4:1 block & tackle also)

On the mizzen mast are 2 winches:

• Port winch for:
  • mizzen halyard
  • mizzen topping liftstaysail halyard
• Under-boom winch & 3 boom-mounted rope clutches for:
  • mizzen outhaul
  • mizzen sheet
  • 2 mizzen reefing lines.

In the cockpit are 4 winches:

• Port primary winch for:
  • headsail sheet
  • spinnaker sheet
• Port secondary winch & 3 clutches for:
  • mainsail sheet
  • port & starboard main traveler control lines
• Starboard primary winch for:
  • headsail sheet
  • spinnaker sheet
• Starboard secondary winch & 3 clutches for:
  • headsail furler
  • staysail furler
  • self-tacking staysail sheet (which is led back from a deck-mounted traveler track

Thats a total of 9 winches. They have mechanical advantages ranging from 8:1 for the mizzen boom winch, all the way up to 66:1 for the cockpit primaries. All of the winches are 2-speed self-tailing (ST) winches, save for the mizzen halyard (1-speed ST) and mizzen boom (non-ST).

Control lines not run to a winch somewhere are:

• port and starboard running backstays (which counterbalance mast bend due to the staysail tension). 4:1 block & tackle arrangements make up for lack of a winch
• spinnaker pole downhaul
• cruising spinnaker "chute" uphaul & downhaul
• main-boom preventer line
• mizzen-boom preventer line
• mizzen-boom vang (on 4:1 block & tackle)
• port & starboard on 6:1 block & tackle on the stern davits to haul up the dinghy

As others have pointed out, it takes quite a few lines to deploy and control the sails, and mechanical advantage can be provided by a block & tackle or by a winch. In addition to the sails, you also need some help with the primary (and secondary if equipped) anchor rode. We have a large windlass with horizontal capstans port & starboard - one for chain and one for rope.

It all adds up to lots of aquisition and maintenance costs. Compare that to the upfront acquistion cost for powerboats of larger engine(s) and fuel.

Someone earlier mentioned that winches don't need a lot of maintenance, and that's true. Once every 6 months to a year is fine unless you sail quite a bit.

External varnished teak, on the other hand, is the devil's work. Which is why I'm going from one-part polyurethane to two-part epoxy with UV inhibitors (Bristol Finish). Leave that argument for another thread!

[sailorladd]

Winches are a sailor's best friend.

Sure, you can sail without them, but you had better have a bunch of strong young crew to help haul up the sails on the mast, each sail has its own dedicated halyard winch, on the average mast usually three, one for the mainsail, one for the headsail one for the spinnaker and one for the inner staysail, if she's a cutter... one for the mainsail, one for the headsail, one for the inner staysail if she doesn't have a self tacking boom, one to winch up the anchor, one to winch the outhaul along the main boom.... getting the idea?

I started out with no winches on my home built boat as the $$$ dwindled, and I would "sweat" up the halyards etc and wrestle with the sheets controlling the sails but it was a real battle in strong winds, and more often than not we would lose control of a sheet or halyard resulting in severe rope burns...slowly but surely I fitted winches and sailing life became a lot less hectic!!

[P3sailor]

You can never have enough wenches, now, winches should depend on you and your vessel.

[Sofa King Fishy]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

I don't agree with Gord, which is unusual, but does happen.

As a minimum, I say you need 6: 2 on the mast, for the halyards, and 4 in the cockpit, 2 primary winches and 2 secondary ones. In addition, our boat has two more, under the dodger, and led through sheet stoppers, for the reefing lines and for moving the main sheet traveler.

And of course, there's the anchor windlass.

Ann

Maybe on older boats re: halyard winches on the mast. Nowadays clutches do the work. 2 for job sheets & 2 for cabin top work- halyards, main sheet, Genny, topping lift, etc. it really depends on how the boat was intended to be used. A Swan 46 has 19 winches- built assuming a large racing crew. A similar Hanse, Bene, Catalina has 4.

[petermjdavies]

Originally Posted by floater88

I'm fresher than a newbie. Just started looking into sailboats for a possible retirement thingy. I keep seeing sailboats with 2 to 4 or even more winches. How many do I actually need? Is it solely dependent on number of sails?

As you have discovered it depends.

The good news is that most production boats have enough. So when you buy your boat new or used it will likely have what you need.

My boat has two at the mast which are there fir the halliards. There are three halliards on my boat.

I have two on the coach roof. Handle things like out haul and reefing lines.

I have three near the helm in the cockpit. One each side for jib and gennaker sheets. One fir the jib roller reefing.

If you don’t know all the names I just said don’t worry. You should before you buy the boat.

[RobPatterson]

Yep.
It depends.
Dinghy doesn't need winches.
Small trailer able sloop has two.
The 25 ton cutter rigged cruiser uses 11 of various sizes depending on the task.
4 Halyard winches: main, staysail, jib, spinaker

4 Sheet winches: staysail port & stb, jib/spin port & stb
1 Outhaul/topping lift (dual use)
1 Jiffy reefing (dual service jib & staysail)
1 Roller reefer (dual service jib & staysail).
The mainsheets just used a block&tackle built into the traveler and didn't use winches.

[capn_billl]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

I don't agree with Gord, which is unusual, but does happen.

As a minimum, I say you need 6: 2 on the mast, for the halyards, and 4 in the cockpit, 2 primary winches and 2 secondary ones. In addition, our boat has two more, under the dodger, and led through sheet stoppers, for the reefing lines and for moving the main sheet traveler.

And of course, there's the anchor windlass.

Ann

Ditto, but Gordmay nailed this one.

I have 4, three are used.

The fourth is the second Mainsheet winch, but since both lines are led to cockpit with clutches 6 inches apart, I only use one winch, and just wrap whichever line I'm tacking on it.

The other winches the Starboard side jib (multi use, halyards) is next to the helm (mine), and is electric. The other port side (wife's) is hand crank only.

After repeated whining, "how come YOU get the electric one?" (The answer is I'm steering with one hand, and winching with the other)

But in the interest of marital peace, I'm upgrading the port winch to electric.

And I also have the furler run to a cheek block at the port winch, so when finished we each get an electric winch with two uses.

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by PeroniPete

I've seen older yachts with winches all over them like warts....and I've seen a 100' Wally with only 2 (gigantic) winches. Hydraulic and electric furling does a lot of the work in the latter case.

I suspect that the 100ft Wally that you saw had “two (gigantic) winches” on deck for handling spinnakers/gennakers and also had four (or more) captive winches below decks (out of sight) to manage the normal sail plan. This is common on most large (super)yachts.

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by David Ess

With kite sail, one winch , one line, automated. No twisted lines.

How do you set a kite sail if you need to go the weather? And if the wind gets up (happens to me occasionally), how do you reef a kite sail?