How do you feel about plumb bows on cruisers?

[DMF Sailing]

First of all, newer production cruiser owners, this post is not an effort to slag off on your beloved boats with those plumb bows, wide beams carried aft, self-tending jibs, drop-down swim platforms, dual Jefa steering systems, fine entry, deep keel, tall rig, relatively light displacement, etc....

I love 'em, too, for what they do best:

1) Fit lots of folks in the cockpit; roomy and comfy below; fun to swim off of; get oohs and ahhs at the dock;

2) An 8-year-old can sail 'em (and tack the ones with the self-tending jib with a turn of the wheel);

3) Fast: I got a Jenneau 389 up to 10 knots, my personal record (though if you check the chart I might have been benefiting from the current outside Cape Cod);

4) all lines led aft to two winches at the helm make for easy shorthanding and a really clean cockpit;

But

I've noticed that sailing upwind in and kind of sea, they sure do get wet. It seems to me, anyway, more than hulls with a little more overhang (I'm comparing to older Sabres and Tartans and a C&C 38 I've sailed. I've never sailed a full-keeled boat so I can't compare those.) Of course, it could also have something to do with something I'm doing wrong, sail trim... but the urge to plunge into oncomings seas these boats just seems...wrong. I'm sure some of you sail oceans in them, and have some ideas....

Anyway, I'm planning a cruise on one of these plumb bow/wide beam boats that will include a not-inconsiderable offshore passage or two. Short of being a gentleman and waiting for the wind to change, I'm trying to think of ways to mitigate the pitching. I'm wondering if moving all heavy things from the bow to midships (anchor/chain) might help.

Anyway, I've put a poll in, because I think they're fun. Also, because I'm always shopping for the next boat. A lot of what I do is gunk around harbor to harbor, grill and swim.

Feels like a Hanse 388 would be perfect for that.

Long as I don't have to do long upwind passages offshore.

[Cheechako]

Huh? I guess this post in NOT about plumb bows.... but modern boats.
A long waterline/ plumb bow should pitch less than a traditional shape, right?

I could see a plumb bow being wet, if you watch real fast ocean racers, a lot of streaming spray comes from the bow.

If you think of a boat's length as it's waterline rather than overall: The overhang is weight which can cause some hobbyhorsing, but it also provides more bouyancy when the bow plunges into the water. I've often wondered how that works out in reality...

Seems maybe a near plumb bow with a bulge like Jimmy Durante's nose would be the best of all worlds... :>)

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Huh? I guess this post in NOT about plumb bows.... but modern boats.

You know better than I do. I just can't shake the feeling that that's not entirely true...(see picture; there seem to be exceptions)

A long waterline/ plumb bow should pitch less than a traditional shape, right?

That's what I would've thought, too

[Jim Cate]

A long waterline/ plumb bow should pitch less than a traditional shape, right?

This has been my experience, and quite dramatically so. One does need to keep excess weight out of the extreme bow area, but that is true of all designs to some degree. The bow on our boat isn't quite plumb, but the overhang is less than a foot, and our LWL is only about a foot less than LOA, and our beam isn't as exaggerated as some newer designs, but it sure ain't a CCA or even IOR shape! And the boat is way drier than my previous boats of those eras.

As to the relative "wetness" of such designs... perhaps the increased spray is due to pointing higher and going faster than in older designs, hmmm? Those factors surely promote spray reaching the cockpit area more than the shape of the bow!

Jim

[Montanan]

Is your issue spray or rather shipped water?

If you are experiencing just spray consider installing spray rails / spray deflectors on the sides of the hull to redirect the water down and away.

If you are shipping water then your bow is cutting into the waves and submerging. Moving some weight aft would avail the lightened fore of the boat to hobby horse more and lift the bow when impacted by the displacement of the wave.

But then dealing with spray and shipped water are what Dodgers are for.

[rslifkin]

I would expect the plumb bow to be a wetter ride, but pitch less. It has less reserve buoyancy up forward, so it will tend to go through the waves more than over them like many older designs. And without flare up forward, there's nothing to deflect spray outwards, so any spray that gets kicked up will come right onto the decks.



Carrying the beam further aft will move the center of pitch rotation aft a bit as well, so it'll feel different as it pitches. Less of the boat rocking back and forth in pitch, but more of the bow going up and down while the stern stays put.

[JPA Cate]

We have an almost plumb bow. We have placed protection on it to avoid dings from the anchor as we retrieve it. In our case, the bow also has a lot of hollow flare to it, and it is very dry. way back in the cockpit. So, it depends on the shape of the sides aft of the stem, too, not just on the plumb bow, imo.

Ann

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

As to the relative "wetness" of such designs... perhaps the increased spray is due to pointing higher and going faster than in older designs, hmmm? Those factors surely promote spray reaching the cockpit area more than the shape of the bow!

Jim

This very well might be true ^
I should've put something like that in my poll. It's doing that because the boat sails higher better, Jack

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Is your issue spray or rather shipped water?

If you are experiencing just spray consider installing spray rails / spray deflectors on the sides of the hull to redirect the water down and away.

If you are shipping water then your bow is cutting into the waves and submerging. Moving some weight aft would avail the lightened fore of the boat to hobby horse more and lift the bow when impacted by the displacement of the wave.

But then dealing with spray and shipped water are what Dodgers are for.

The spray picture I posted just because that's the only shot I had (In those conditions my hands are usually busy ).

Shipped water is the issue that bothers me more. The boat I'm taking has a dodger, thankfully, so spray isn't a problem.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by DMF Sailing

Shipped water is the issue that bothers me more. The boat I'm taking has a dodger, thankfully, so spray isn't a problem.

That probably speaks to plumb bows needing other matching design features to go along with them. Basically, if the design makes it easier to take water over the decks, the boat needs to be better at dealing with water over the decks (and keeping it out of the cockpit). Having as many of the controls led to the cockpit as possible helps, as you're less likely to need to traverse the decks while they look like rivers.

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

We have an almost plumb bow. We have placed protection on it to avoid dings from the anchor as we retrieve it. In our case, the bow also has a lot of hollow flare to it, and it is very dry. way back in the cockpit. So, it depends on the shape of the sides aft of the stem, too, not just on the plumb bow, imo.

Ann

Good points, all. Yours is a one-off if I recall correctly... it seems to me that all the popular production cruisers of this modern design have a similar build

What do you use for the protection? This is not a purchase; it's a cruise. But I don't want to ding anyone's gelcoat.

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Having as many of the controls led to the cockpit as possible helps, as you're less likely to need to traverse the decks while they look like rivers.

This is extremely true.

The only time I've had to go forward in a seaway was when I couldn't furl the jib from the cockpit in a strong breeze (small harbor; faces open ocean; needed to douse sails before heading in) and ended up with macrame. And even that once was inexperience; what you do is bear off to a broad reach and hide the jib behind the enormous mainsail to depower it, then furl.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by DMF Sailing

Good points, all. Yours is a one-off if I recall correctly... it seems to me that all the popular production cruisers of this modern design have a similar build

What do you use for the protection? This is not a purchase; it's a cruise. But I don't want to ding anyone's gelcoat.

Hi, DMF,

It is a really tough plastic, I believe PVC: it is about 6 mm thick, ~1/4", and is screwed and glued on, waterline to just below the stem head fitting.

Ann

[thomm225]

Many times engineers will test with models before building a boat.

So with that thought in mind, I was thinking on a certain 20 mile Sea Buoy Race back in 1999 or so, we are heading out Pensacola Pass.

The pass (inlet) is narrow and the waves can get up to 6'-8' even on a nice day.

The wind was sort of light and my crew and I are coming thru on my plumb bow Nacra 6.0.

As we come thru and go thru the large waves, we are slamming down hard over each one.

After coming thru and getting out into the Gulf, I look back and see a Hobie 16 with it's rocker bows (which are sort of like an old cruising boat) just riding smoothly over the big waves..... up one side and back down the other.

Not related video but a nice one of a late model H16.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMxnCI46kkA

[capn_billl]

"Keep weight off the bow", like a 50lb anchor, and 200 ft of chain?

The plum bows sure are in style right now.

Upside, LOA increases hull speed.

Downside less reserve buoyancy.

Upside more bow storage.

Downside You can't put anything there without hobby horsing.

I can see advantages to both.