Heavy sailboats are slower and

[Training Wheels]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Yes, it is fun to blow the pants off a new Hanse 415 or a Tartan 3800 when they are supposedly much faster than our old school design especially in light to moderate wind. Had a chance to talk to the skipper of the T3800 the next morning after anchoring close to each other and he claimed he was a racer. He was never even close to catching us on any point of sail. I did rub it in a little when I asked him how many fish did he catch while in this impromptu race. We had our trolling rods out and caught 2 to their 0 (no rods out).



Bill O.

Isn’t your boat 49’?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Yes, it is fun to blow the pants off a new Hanse 415 or a Tartan 3800 when they are supposedly much faster than our old school design especially in light to moderate wind. Had a chance to talk to the skipper of the T3800 the next morning after anchoring close to each other and he claimed he was a racer. He was never even close to catching us on any point of sail. I did rub it in a little when I asked him how many fish did he catch while in this impromptu race. We had our trolling rods out and caught 2 to their 0 (no rods out).

Bill O.

Well, I got the pants blown off of me by a new Hanse 575 a few years ago. That was irritating; we worked hard but couldn't catch her despite chasing her hard all day down the Dutch and Belgian North Sea coasts. It is true that it was a broad reach in light wind and we had our heavy weather upwind blade jib up (the 120% yankee went up in the next harbor), but I suspect that well sailed that boat will beat me just about anywhere -- my same weight and almost a meter more LWL Can't fight physics. That's D/L almost 50 better than our 188


But 40 foot racing boats? We eat 'em for lunch under most conditions, and more and more when the sea is up and the going gets tough. The thing is that 8 knots is 1.5 knots below our hull speed and takes very little power to reach -- we can reach 8 knots in all kinds of conditions; I only need 10 knots of true wind and some kind of reach. Whereas if your waterline length is in the mid or even high 30's, 8 knots is close enough to require quite a bit of power.

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

Isn’t your boat 49’?

Yes, it is and a lwl of 40', but what is the whole exercise of this thread? Its about heavy boat being slow. Our underbody has more wetted area than the newer designs. When we are in full cruise mode we are carrying ~450 gal. fuel/water, provisions for weeks, possibly towing a dinghy. The d/l listed in most brochures are for the dry weight and we are way above the 279 previously mentioned when we are in full cruise mode.


Add all this up we should be easily out sailed by the weekenders in their performance boats.


Bill O.

[Training Wheels]

I’m really a piss poor sailor. I can’t pass a gunboat 66 or a mod 70 tri, and our boat is much lighter. [emoji21]

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, I got the pants blown off of me by a new Hanse 575 a few years ago. That was irritating; we worked hard but couldn't catch her despite chasing her hard all day down the Dutch and Belgian North Sea coasts. It is true that it was a broad reach in light wind and we had our heavy weather upwind blade jib up (the 120% yankee went up in the next harbor), but I suspect that well sailed that boat will beat me just about anywhere -- my same weight and almost a meter more LWL Can't fight physics. That's D/L almost 50 better than our 188


But 40 foot racing boats? We eat 'em for lunch under most conditions, and more and more when the sea is up and the going gets tough. The thing is that 8 knots is 1.5 knots below our hull speed and takes very little power to reach -- we can reach 8 knots in all kinds of conditions; I only need 10 knots of true wind and some kind of reach. Whereas if your waterline length is in the mid or even high 30's, 8 knots is close enough to require quite a bit of power.

Yep, some days you get smoked by another boat, just the way it goes! At least we don't feel so bad since we don't have payments for a high dollar boat.

[zeehag]

bashed in heavy bashed in light... surfed in heavy , surfed in light. sailed big winds in heavy sailed medium big winds in light. i prefer heavy.
took 8.5 ft quartering seas over stbd quarter in light, took quartering 8.5 plus ft seas in heavy. the 8.5 ft sea pooped the light by 3 feet... passed nicely over the stbd waist and out the scuppers in my formosa. i prefer my formosa.
i value my kidneys..hahahahaha bashing in a light boat sucks bad.
i also love watching folks head into port as i leave in a decent 20 plus kt breeze.

[Dockhead]

You have less d/l than a Gunboat?

What are you sailing, an Americas Cup boat

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

I’m really a piss poor sailor. I can’t pass a gunboat 66 or a mod 70 tri, and our boat is much lighter. [emoji21]

[barnakiel]

Steinlager and her sister were fine but not extreme.


You want a good ketch? You buy a Mari Cha ...


b.

[Training Wheels]

Of course I was referring to actual weight, since this thread is referencing weight, not D/L. But, after crunching the numbers, our boat does actually have a D/L less than a Gunboat 66, or at least as listed on Sailboatdata. So yes, I must really be a piss poor sailor.

[picklesandjesse]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Can't disagree with this comment as the "usable" sail area close hauled smaller, thus isn't the best point of sail for most ketches. Now crack it off to 60 degrees and we are talking a totally different ballgame, then the full sail plan can be used.

Glad you like ketches Dockhead. If you could find a Sundeer 64 (ketch) then you may have your dream boat. Also agree that you want a mizzen that is a bit larger than smaller for better drive.

One realistic downside of the large ketch is a haul out. Most lifts can't handle the mizzen and the mizzen mast has to be pulled before it can be lifted. Not a big pain, but something to consider.


Bill O.

When we had our F and C 44 about 30 years ago they would sometimes put us in the stern first. These boats were quite fast for ketches and some were raced in the day. German Frers designed and built in Argentina. A bit wet at sea !!!! Used to often get the wavetops in the cockpit though on beam reach in heavy weather.

[Joli]

We sailed Boston to the Cape Cod canal today, upwind in 11 to 17 apparent with speeds of 6 to 9 knots. Pretty much passed everything sailing nearby. The boat is old (designed in the 70’s) and heavy (65,000#’s). But we have a big rig and ample water line. I think if a boat has a decent design, a moderate SA/D and a moderate D/L it will sail easily to and above its theoretical hull speed.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

Of course I was referring to actual weight, since this thread is referencing weight, not D/L. But, after crunching the numbers, our boat does actually have a D/L less than a Gunboat 66, or at least as listed on Sailboatdata. So yes, I must really be a piss poor sailor.

We have been comparing heavy and light boats of like waterline length.


So unless your (beach cat?) has LWL of 62 feet, you can't compare it to a Gunboat 66, even if the D/L is similar.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by picklesandjesse

Attachment 199497

When we had our F and C 44 about 30 years ago they would sometimes put us in the stern first. These boats were quite fast for ketches and some were raced in the day. German Frers designed and built in Argentina. A bit wet at sea !!!! Used to often get the wavetops in the cockpit though on beam reach in heavy weather.

One advantage of ketches which is not reflected in the numbers is their SHEER BEAUTY!

[Scaramanga F25]

Originally Posted by NormanMartin

The OP Question...

Then, it was discovered that light boats cost less and were more fun to sail so "light is right" now. The exception that proves the rule was Ted Hood who designed, built and won with lead filled centerboarders. In the level racing field weight didn't matter as much as hull form and sailing skill. In the cruising market, boats with similar waterline lengths and sail area to displacement ratios should perform similarly. Kind of an oversimplification but you all get the idea.

All of which is to say, heavy boats need not be slow.

Lighter is faster. I raced on Ted Hood's Robin Two Too for 2 years. Somewhat heavier yes. The cabin sole was lead covered with fiberglass. It was only faster upwind of which Ted was the master. 3 foot draft board up. The secret was a very light mast and rigging and a 10-foot centerboard. Also, I have never sailed on any other race boat where the steering was so light and responsive.

[Training Wheels]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

We have been comparing heavy and light boats of like waterline length.


So unless your (beach cat?) has LWL of 62 feet, you can't compare it to a Gunboat 66, even if the D/L is similar.

Yes, that was the point of my first post, when Bill O was commenting on his 49’ boat sailing faster than daysailers.