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Old 28-05-2020, 18:36   #1
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Ground Tackle Options and Handling - Cape Dory 27

I have just recently purchased a CD27 and I am wondering what other sailing CD owners have been doing for ground tackle.

I am hoping to sail this boat far away to warm waters and live on her, on the hook. Reading about this at length and watching countless hours of video, it seems all the people who actually do this agree on two things.

1) Use a heavy anchor. Probably heavier than the manufacturer suggests for your boat. Definitely heavy enough that a day sailer says, "why such a heavy anchor? I use a 1/4oz fishing weight works just fine."
2) Use an all chain rode, where every single link is tested.

I am wondering if there is anyone who has done this with their CD27, or other sailing cape dory that has a similar bow? When I look at the bow fairleads they look like they could really wear hard on a rope rode in bad weather, or on a sea anchor rode. They definitely look like a chain belongs no where in there. The foredeck is also rather small, so not much room for a windlass or a capstan.


I've also been considering a manual windlass, such as follows. I just get the feeling that the motor-powered units that I see that also have manual operation are probably a *bear* (no mechanical advantage) to use.... https://www.lofrans.com/product/4-Lofra ... 5015-royal

Thanks for your thoughts,
AT
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Old 28-05-2020, 20:10   #2
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Re: Ground Tackle Options and Handling - Cape Dory 27

For a 27 foot sailboat, do not even consider an electric windlass! It's crazy.

For years on a 40 foot boat I pulled the anchor by hand. Luxury was upgrading to a manual windlass, and I never, ever lusted after an electric. (Well... maybe that one time lifting an 80 pound anchor and 3/8" chain from the bottom of a 60 foot deep anchorage in Hawaii.)

Seriously, this is way, way, overkill and is adding too much complexity to a small boat.

Do NOT try to turn you 27 footer into a superyacht. Keep It Simple Sailor. You will be happier.
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Old 28-05-2020, 21:08   #3
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Re: Ground Tackle Options and Handling - Cape Dory 27

My boat is a Bristol 27 which is quite similar to your CD27.

I'm still using the old CQR anchor that came with the boat which I bought back in 2011. This anchor has saved me from being beached several times with winds up to near 30 knots blowing all night.

During squalls with wind gust to 45 knots. It's an original 20 lb CQR with maybe 35' of heavy chain and the 250' rope road.

I have a backup Bruce with similar chain and rode and a few Danforths that I've never used.

You could probably get a 25 lb CQR for very little since most folks these days think they need a new gen anchor and that nothing else will hold.

Another guy that sailed his Bristol 27 almost around the world used an old Bruce. See attached pictures

I sail single handed and have no windlass.

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Old 29-05-2020, 05:46   #4
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Re: Ground Tackle Options and Handling - Cape Dory 27

Here's something else to keep in mind from the Atom Voayes website.

https://atomvoyages.com/planning/goo...oats-list.html

A final word of advice to the novice sailor - resist the temptation to undertake a major refit and extensive modifications on your new old boat right at the start. It's best to make only the obvious repairs needed and go out and sail locally and on some coastal vacation passages to learn exactly what is and what is not needed for you. Otherwise you may end up spending years and many thousands of dollars more than expected modifying your boat and then find out on your first ocean crossing that the boat is not right for you or those great ideas you had during the refurbishment did not work out that well at sea.

I did very few things to my boat for the first few years.

I completed a bottom job but didn't change much else besides the out diesel that failed which I replaced with a new 5hp 4 stroke outboard.

Otherwise I used the same docklines, ancient electronics (depth, GPS, VHF, autopilot) and old anchors.

I added solar after I replaced the diesel because the outboard doesn't have an alternator and I replaced the mainsail with a new one.

Lifelines were replaced with polyester/Deenma line.
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Old 29-05-2020, 05:52   #5
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Re: Ground Tackle Options and Handling - Cape Dory 27

If you can easily fit an electric windlass at a reasonable cost, I'd do it, as it'll give more flexibility in what ground tackle you can handle, and deciding to pick up and move when you probably should is an easier decision when it's less effort to do so. And you don't need a giant sized mega windlass on that boat.

For figuring out the best setup, where do you plan to cruise and what kind of bottoms are you likely to encounter? That will help determine if you have a real need for all chain, or if you can just go with a good length of chain and then line, allowing you to put more weight into the anchor (being that you'll be weight limited on a boat that size, especially if you're hand hauling).

As far as manual backup on a windlass, most of them are not great, but it does vary between models. It's fairly high effort due to no gearing advantage on my Maxwell HRC10, but if you use a good length ratchet it's certainly manageable and I'd say better than hand hauling for the last part of the lift. You'd probably hand haul until you got to lifting the anchor off the bottom, then switch to manual backup if the electrical portion wasn't working.
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Old 29-05-2020, 06:04   #6
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Re: Ground Tackle Options and Handling - Cape Dory 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Here's something else to keep in mind from the Atom Voayes website.

https://atomvoyages.com/planning/goo...oats-list.html

A final word of advice to the novice sailor - resist the temptation to undertake a major refit and extensive modifications on your new old boat right at the start. It's best to make only the obvious repairs needed and go out and sail locally and on some coastal vacation passages to learn exactly what is and what is not needed for you. Otherwise you may end up spending years and many thousands of dollars more than expected modifying your boat and then find out on your first ocean crossing that the boat is not right for you or those great ideas you had during the refurbishment did not work out that well at sea.

I did very few things to my boat for the first few years.

I completed a bottom job but didn't change much else besides the out diesel that failed which I replaced with a new 5hp 4 stroke outboard.

Otherwise I used the same docklines, ancient electronics (depth, GPS, VHF, autopilot) and old anchors.

I added solar after I replaced the diesel because the outboard doesn't have an alternator and I replaced the mainsail with a new one.

Lifelines were replaced with polyester/Deenma line.
Hi Thomm, it's good to hear from you. I hope your Bristol is doing well! Thank you for your help as I was looking for a boat.

I think it's also interesting to note that Atom, from Atom voyages, has that exact model Lofrans manual winch I linked to on its bow. Since Atom is doing the kind of voyaging that I hope to one day do, I think it's prudent to start planning how to do that. The Pardeys were also very explicit in Storm Tactics and Self Sufficient Sailor that a quality all-bronze windlass is a requirement for safe sailing. So the Pardeys would poo-poo the Lofrans, but James does poo-poo its aluminum/bronze construction as well. I can't always depend on my strong back to haul my anchor, I may be injured or old some day.


- AT
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Old 29-05-2020, 06:32   #7
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Re: Ground Tackle Options and Handling - Cape Dory 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atcowboy View Post
Hi Thomm, it's good to hear from you. I hope your Bristol is doing well! Thank you for your help as I was looking for a boat.

I think it's also interesting to note that Atom, from Atom voyages, has that exact model Lofrans manual winch I linked to on its bow. Since Atom is doing the kind of voyaging that I hope to one day do, I think it's prudent to start planning how to do that. The Pardeys were also very explicit in Storm Tactics and Self Sufficient Sailor that a quality all-bronze windlass is a requirement for safe sailing. So the Pardeys would poo-poo the Lofrans, but James does poo-poo its aluminum/bronze construction as well. I can't always depend on my strong back to haul my anchor, I may be injured or old some day.


- AT

You also realize that your reference is 45 years old and was considered very traditional then. A few things have changed.


I would read "Modern Cruising Under Sail" by David Dodds for a change of pace and contrast.



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Old 29-05-2020, 06:53   #8
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Re: Ground Tackle Options and Handling - Cape Dory 27

Atcowboy,

First I agree with thomm and his Atom Voyages quote.

I own a Watkins 27. She weights in at 7500 pounds and she has a small chain locker.

I use a Rocna Vulcan 27 pound anchor, a 3/8 inch shackle connects the 50 feet of 5/16 inch G4 chain which I spliced into a 3/8 inch three strand anchor line that is 200 feet long.

I have a spare Delta 27 pound anchor, same chain and rode diameters but with only 15 feet of chain.

I have no windlass.

I ordered my Rocna per the instructions on the Rocna website. They said there was no need to size up, just use what they recommended...so I did.

Using both anchors, in tandem...the Delta with the 15 feet of chain connected to the Rocna and at a scope of 8 to 1, held through hurricane Dorian. Winds clocked at 90-100 mph.

I've held in the Bahamas through two gales/squalls with just the Rocna, one storm had sustained winds of 45 mph for 30 minutes but maxed out gusts at 90 mph.

Currently single-handed. I'm closing in on 58 years old. The only time I sorta wanted a windlass is when it is bumpy as it makes hauling by hand a chore. Basically I haul in about 25 feet, tie off, store the 25 feet, and continue until it is all in.

As for the pinchpoints on the bow. Install a small bow roller and I use some old firehose on my chafe or pinch points as needed.

Again, I agree with the Atom Voyages thoughts.

You could also apply the Harbor Freight rule. If you think you need it, buy from Harbor Freight. If you use it enough to break it, then go buy a good one... shouldn't apply to safety stuff though.

Hope this helps, stay free.
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Old 29-05-2020, 06:55   #9
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Re: Ground Tackle Options and Handling - Cape Dory 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
You also realize that your reference is 45 years old and was considered very traditional then. A few things have changed.


I would read "Modern Cruising Under Sail" by David Dodds for a change of pace and contrast.



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Thank you for the reading suggestion; there are so many books out there on the subject it is hard to find which ones to spend your shekels on. I just picked up a copy on thrift book.

That said, Thomm was quoting Atom voyages (which certainly is not 45 years old) and so was I. In fact, Atom's Good Old Boat List is where I found the CD 27 (Also the Bristol 27 that Thomm owns, and I asked him about when I went to go look at one).

I love watching the YouTubes of people "out there" and "doing it". Endlessly fixing electrical gremlins and such. (I'm being serious, if I'm not working my way to the Caribbean by finishing my dinghy or now my boat, I'm watching other people sail). Of the more capable ones I like to watch, I've noticed is that a lot of them still refer to the Pardeys, including [I]Storm Tactics[I]. As far as the Pardey's relevance, the ocean is still 1.0. Am I planning on oil running lights? No. Do I think that some of what they write about is still relevant? Absolutely.

Thanks,
AT
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Old 29-05-2020, 06:58   #10
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Re: Ground Tackle Options and Handling - Cape Dory 27

The anchor does not care what type of boat it is attached too. The anchor only cares about the seabed it's buried in. The type of boat has no bearing on the type of anchor.

IMHO (.......and this topic is akin to trolling as there have been thousands of "Which anchor" threads on every boating website since forums were invented) the 'new age' anchors perform very well.

Spade
Rocna
Manson
Mantus

If don't have a bow pulpit, or the bow roller goes over the bow pulpit, any of the roll-bar types work well. If you have a through pulpit mounted anchor, then the non-roll bar models (Rocna Vulcan, Spade) work very well.

I've used a traditional Rocna, Manson Supreme and a Rocna Vulcan. Each for several years and had very good success with all of them.
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Old 29-05-2020, 06:58   #11
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Re: Ground Tackle Options and Handling - Cape Dory 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atcowboy View Post

I am hoping to sail this boat far away to warm waters and live on her, on the hook. Reading about this at length and watching countless hours of video, it seems all the people who actually do this agree on two things.
Having done it (close to 50k nm offshore I am not sure I totally agree

1) Use a heavy anchor. Probably heavier than the manufacturer suggests for your boat. Definitely heavy enough that a day sailer says, "why such a heavy anchor? I use a 1/4oz fishing weight works just fine."

It is the kind of anchor, not the weight that is most important. The new gen anchors are much superior to old gen. We used a Manson Supreme of the weight suggested for way more than 1000 nights of cruising and it was great.Not suggesting a Manson, just one of several new gens.

2) Use an all chain rode, where every single link is tested.
Not sure how you test every link. Buy good quality chain though. With a smaller, lighter boat like yours not sure about all chain. You end up with a. lot of weight at one end of the boat. The main reason for all chain is protection from coral and other sharp bits on the bottom. For your boat I would lean toward 100' of chain and then rode.

I am wondering if there is anyone who has done this with their CD27, or other sailing cape dory that has a similar bow? When I look at the bow fairleads they look like they could really wear hard on a rope rode in bad weather, or on a sea anchor rode. They definitely look like a chain belongs no where in there. The foredeck is also rather small, so not much room for a windlass or a capstan.

As well as room for a windlass look at chain/rode storage. You want chain to be able to fall pretty much vertically. When you are anchored with chain you use a nylon snubber from the chain to a substantial cleat (not windlass), almost certainly through bow chocks with appropriate chafe protection. Often time bow rollers are just not that strong.


I've also been considering a manual windlass, such as follows. I just get the feeling that the motor-powered units that I see that also have manual operation are probably a *bear* (no mechanical advantage) to use.... https://www.lofrans.com/product/4-Lofra ... 5015-royal

A lot depends on your physical abilities. Even a fairly small powered windlass works well. Remember that it is used mainly just to bring up the anchor/chain/rode, not to break it out. You do that with boat movement. Try someone's manual windlass and see what you think. They tend to be very slow.
Thanks for your thoughts,
AT
Hope that helps
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Old 29-05-2020, 07:07   #12
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Re: Ground Tackle Options and Handling - Cape Dory 27

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Also all the electric windlasses have a below-deck space-grab so I'd be already loosing more of such a tiny area in the vbirth/peak.

A vertical electric needs space below deck for the motor and gearbox, but if you have the deck space for a horizontal windlass, that's all kept up top. Only things through the deck are where the chain/line drops through and where the wires go through. So a more similar footprint to most of the manual windlasses. And for the amount of pulling power you're likely to need, some of the horizontal windlasses available are fairly compact.
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Old 29-05-2020, 07:31   #13
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Re: Ground Tackle Options and Handling - Cape Dory 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atcowboy View Post
Hi Thomm, it's good to hear from you. I hope your Bristol is doing well! Thank you for your help as I was looking for a boat.

I think it's also interesting to note that Atom, from Atom voyages, has that exact model Lofrans manual winch I linked to on its bow. Since Atom is doing the kind of voyaging that I hope to one day do, I think it's prudent to start planning how to do that. The Pardeys were also very explicit in Storm Tactics and Self Sufficient Sailor that a quality all-bronze windlass is a requirement for safe sailing. So the Pardeys would poo-poo the Lofrans, but James does poo-poo its aluminum/bronze construction as well. I can't always depend on my strong back to haul my anchor, I may be injured or old some day.


- AT
I agree with the guy above that said you really don't need a windlass for your (our) size boat.

Pulling up anchor is one of the few decent workouts you get while on the boat. In a blow, it can be difficult but doable and usually if it's blowing hard your not moving unless you are caught in a bad spot.

(but) I have used my outboard to help with moving the boat forward in a blow to reteive the anchor. I put the outboard in forward and have it at idle and that usually is all the help I need. Then I just tie the anchor to the foredeck (rather than mounting it back on the bow platform) and run back to the cockpit and take control.

If it's not blowing, I'll have the mainsail up and the motor off and up out of the water so I can sail off after I secure the anchor

Btw, what type anchor did your boat come with?

You might just use that for the summer and see how it does. That was my plan when I first bought my boat and I'm still using the CQR that was on the bow when I fund the boat in 2011 even though my boat came with a backup Bruce with new heavy chain (40') and 300' new rope rode plus the Danforths
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Old 29-05-2020, 07:55   #14
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Re: Ground Tackle Options and Handling - Cape Dory 27

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I agree with the guy above that said you really don't need a windlass for your (our) size boat.

Pulling up anchor is one of the few decent workouts you get while on the boat. In a blow, it can be difficult but doable and usually if it's blowing hard your not moving unless you are caught in a bad spot.

(but) I have used my outboard to help with moving the boat forward in a blow to reteive the anchor. I put the outboard in forward and have it at idle and that usually is all the help I need. Then I just tie the anchor to the foredeck (rather than mounting it back on the bow platform) and run back to the cockpit and take control.

If it's not blowing, I'll have the mainsail up and the motor off and up out of the water so I can sail off after I secure the anchor

Btw, what type anchor did your boat come with?

You might just use that for the summer and see how it does. That was my plan when I first bought my boat and I'm still using the CQR that was on the bow when I fund the boat in 2011 even though my boat came with a backup Bruce with new heavy chain (40') and 300' new rope rode plus the Danforths
Hi. Do you have a bow roller? Right now I don't and I just can't imagine wanting to dead-lift my anchor every single time, trying to keep chain off my bow hardware, toe rail, etc. One of the big questions I was hoping to have answered is the actual handling of the chain on a CD27 or if I ever needed too, how to handle a bar-taught riding anchor while hove-to in a blow. (Hence specifically avoiding anchor types). I see adding a roller to a CD27 as difficult (I've seen a couple of pictures that looked hacky to me, nothing clean) so I was trying to see if anyone had anything elegant out there.

The boat came with 2 danforth anchors (weight unknown to me, one's pretty big one not so much). They both have some chain (length unknown) and then some rope (again unknown). Life on the boat will start with just lunch out, and then if I gain confidence in these maybe an overnight. The boat is on the MA/RI border so plenty of great sailing to be had. But I'm hoping to get the boat down to the Caribbean this winter, assuming that it isn't still on lock-down.

It's kind of funny. I was just reading a similar post from 2010 and the answers were much different (again, ignoring the latest name-brand anchor in vogue, and focusing on the chain/rode and intended use. ).

- AT
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Old 29-05-2020, 08:08   #15
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Re: Ground Tackle Options and Handling - Cape Dory 27

I have no bow roller but I do have a bow platform which originally had a roller. The roller mounting bolt was bent and the end of the platform was damaged so I cut that off and put in a galvanized bolt.

The photos are a couple years old.

Here lately I have just been leaving the anchor tied off on the foredeck rather than mounting it back out on the bow. I tie it off to the cleat at first then later to that little storage board I (and the PO) have tie along the port side forward.

All the chain and rope rode go back down into the storage area below when I get around to it. It's capped off in photo. (chrome cap center forward)

Photoes showing the anchor deployed were taken on the save day. Sunny photo was 30 minutes are so before the squall came in. Same day as video above.

My CQR is a 20 lber
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