"Goldilocks" 45 footer

[ricwoz]

In my previous post I compared two boats that I considered on opposite ends of the spectrum of "Old School" vs. "New School" designs. (The Pacific Seacraft 40 and the Jeanneau SO 410). I was soliciting opinions on the design aspects of the two boats - the newer wider, dual rudder, lighter-and-faster style vs. the older double-ender. (Link here: Old vs. New Style Cruisers)

I got a bunch of fantastic responses including several along the lines of the one which was posted by Sailorman97, which was:

However there are all kinds of boats out there in the 40 ft range that are a better compromise than the SO410 or the PS40.

So, "neither too tradtional, nor too modern, and too light", but the "just right" Goldilocks of sailboats.

While I used 40 footers in my previous example, I'd like refine that as sizes centered around 45 feet (so in the range of 40 to 50 feet).

I realize that there are a lot of boats in this space, so what boats are your favorite "just right" cruisers for ocean sailing?

(If you want to explain again why nothing but a full keel boat like an Island Packet or Hans Christian is a good idea, feel free. If you like something even more modernistic than the Jeanneau, have at it).

Thanks! I really appreciate all the thoughtful responses.

[Wilyum]

A good discussion with Dick Beaumont, the founder and CEO of Kraken Yachts, on the two styles of boats your comparing.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YNHCHp8yjcE&t=12s

[ricwoz]

Originally Posted by Wilyum

A good discussion with Dick Beaumont, the founder and CEO of Kraken Yachts, on the two styles of boats your comparing.

The previous thread was comparing the two styles of boats. Dick B. does a good job of presenting the case for the old-school yacht, (or at least many characteristics of them) but of course, that's what he's selling.

That previous thread was asking people here, with different opinions on this topic to weigh in and share them. And they did: 5 pages (and 8,000 views).

Hearing the Old School claims (which I am very familiar with being an old fellow myself, and having heard all the lore of Valiants, Pacific Seacrafts, Taiwan Cutters, Hans Christians and such for decades now (and done some sailing on a few of them, too) was less enlightening to me than the counter-claims of the New School advocates.

After all, there are tons and tons of people doing water sailing">blue water sailing on Beneataus, Jeanneaus and other more modern designs. I don't think they are all just unaware of the "Lead Sled" advocates and their claims.

And now, even some of the old-school blue-water builders, like Hallberg-Rassy are now building with dual rudders and other new-school features. (Maybe they are just following buyer demand, or maybe, as they claim they really do think it's better, and just as safe in practice, contra Dick B.)

So, I was interested in hearing the other side, and I did, and if you haven't checked out that thread you might find it interesting too. Especially if you are falling under the sway of the Kracken-master.

But this thread I was looking for something slightly different:

The opinion of a lot of people was that *neither* the old-style boats like the Pacific Seacraft *nor* the agressively modern French charter boats are ideal, something in between is the best. A compromise.

I think the Kraken 50 probably fits in the in-between, so it answers by slotting right into my Goldilocks focus. THANKS! (I'd say it's pretty close to the Pacific Seacraft end of the spectrum.)

I also posted a thread on center-cockpits: pros and cons. Obviously if you like center cockpits the Kracken is a possibility. If you prefer the aft cockpit, you are SOL with the Kracken.

Anyway, thanks again, very much, and here's another picture of the Kracken 50 at sail:

[kiwin]

I absolutely agree in the Goldilocks thing. Full keel etc is hydrodynamics from the 18th century...they just don't sail very well and we can do better. And the new super wide dual rudder boats are built with one thing in mind.....dual aft cabins. Once you get a boat where the shape is not determined by the flow of water etc then you have a problem. And the problem is.....that they work ok..ish in flat water, but any waves make the motion quite uncomfortable and the boats are hard to steer.
Even boats like the Kraken are at one extreme as they are beamy heavy displacement vessels. What happened to boats with moderate beam and displacement? Shapes like a rival 34? Something like this with a fin keel and spade rudder? The disadvantages of a "real" boat are obvious....less hull volume: if the beam to length is 3.5:1 or greater there is less boat than a beamy pizza wedge like a Beneteau or similar.
It's very hard to find moderate boats without excessive beam or extremes of displacement. The boats of Joe Adams or Graham Radford come to mind, perhaps some of Chuck Paine's designs. I am sure other examples will be listed.

[ricwoz]

Originally Posted by kiwin

I absolutely agree in the Goldilocks thing. Full keel etc is hydrodynamics from the 18th century...they just don't sail very well and we can do better. And the new super wide dual rudder boats are built with one thing in mind.....dual aft cabins. Once you get a boat where the shape is not determined by the flow of water etc then you have a problem. And the problem is.....that they work ok..ish in flat water, but any waves make the motion quite uncomfortable and the boats are hard to steer.
Even boats like the Kraken are at one extreme as they are beamy heavy displacement vessels. What happened to boats with moderate beam and displacement? Shapes like a rival 34? Something like this with a fin keel and spade rudder? The disadvantages of a "real" boat are obvious....less hull volume: if the beam to length is 3.5:1 or greater there is less boat than a beamy pizza wedge like a Beneteau or similar.
It's very hard to find moderate boats without excessive beam or extremes of displacement. The boats of Joe Adams or Graham Radford come to mind, perhaps some of Chuck Paine's designs. I am sure other examples will be listed.

You put it better than I did, but yeah, that's exactly what I mean. And I don't know if you coined the term: "beamy pizza wedge" but it's fantastic.

I never head of Chuck Paine, but I found his web site and this is the boat on the front of it:



Of course that's a day sailer for the bay. Here's his 30' off-shore voyager (his name):

[ricwoz]

The Rival 34:

[ricwoz]

On my other thread a number of people said that the Hallberg-Rassy was their choice for a Goldilocks boat. But the new ones seem to be taking a lot of design cues from Le French. Here's the current 44' model.

Yep, it has their traditional center cockpit deisgn, but underneath the water, there lurk the dual rudders!

Dick Beaumont is not amused! If a unprotected spade rudder in line with the keel is bad - how much worse are TWIN rudders with absolutely NOTHING in front of them protecting them?

Yet: here they are on one of the most beloved cruising boats ever!






Site text:

TWIN RUDDERS
The twin rudders configuration gives a modern hull form ultimate control in all conditions, on all points of sail and the reduced load on each rudder increases the security of the system. The mechanical advantage of a single big wheel gives the helmsman control and feedback under sail, especially in tough weather.

[kiwin]

And just to be clear...it must be much harder to design a moderate boat as they get shorter. Smaller boats go slower, so need proportionally more food, water, diesel etc. And extra gear is proportionally more heavy so for smaller boats the designer will necessarily end up with a higher displacement length ratio. It's one reason why Dashew's boats are longer. His way wouldn't make sense under 50ft.

[kiwin]

They are bigger, but have a look at Chuck Paines
more bluewater boats:
https://www.chuckpaine.com/sailhistory.html

[kiwin]

https://www.boats.com/reviews/reindeer-games/

[kiwin]

RADFORD YACHT DESIGN - from the past

[ricwoz]

Originally Posted by kiwin

They are bigger, but have a look at Chuck Paines
more bluewater boats:
https://www.chuckpaine.com/sailhistory.html

Wow, those are awesome! Thanks!

[kiwin]

https://www.boatsales.com.au/boats/d...SSE-AD-7178409

[kiwin]

The other part of this is that we all think of boat size in terms of length overall. But if you have a moderate displacement, moderate beam yacht, then it will be smaller than most boats for its length. So your 45 ft boat may actually end up as a 50 foot boat. Take a look at the Dashew Sundeer 56. It has the same rig size and accommodation and displacement as a 45 ft boat. It's just faster and easier to sail. It's going to cost more in a marina or travel lift. But all the gear is 45ft size.
I have owned a 45ft boat with a 7ft beam. Many people have said to me that it has no room for a 45ft boat...and they are so right....but my reply is that it has a very long waterline for a 25 ft boat. It's an extreme example but that boat has a 16hp motor and does 9.5 knots under engine. Fastest speeds under sail are in the high teens. The boat does 10 knots easily....I soon learned never to tow the dinghy!

[OzDean]

Twin Rudders have advantages, however if you are doing a lot of stern in med mooring or any berthing where there are boats side by side with bow lines or anchors, then having rudders located at the side can be problematic as there is not much room for error in a cross wind/current. This is a problem for cats sometimes when entering/leaving these types of moorings but at least cats have twin engines and are more maneuverable. I did see a review of a recent big ass, voluminous cruising yacht where they had opted for the single centre rudder and the performance was stilll fine. Do twin rudders give you better performance? How many cruisers sail their boat upwind on its ear anyway?