German Made Sailboats with Raised Deck Saloon Designed for Long Distance Cruising

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by LittleWing77

Insisting on bluewater boats, meant for offshore sailing and then choosing a brand with large windows is contradictory.

Large windows are specifically *not* safe for offshore sailing. See report below for more detailled info.

Maritime New Zealand's Report into the Loss of Yacht Essence
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...-a-253634.html

Perhaps a bit more homework on safety elements in offshore yachts and not limiting yourself to German boats.

For instance, have a look at Malos (Sweden):

Malo Yachts
https://www.maloyachts.se

Fair winds,
LittleWing77

I would not make such a categorical statement. The issue with Essence was not large windows (they were quite small) but flexy hull and poor engineering of the glazing.


Larger windows are fine as long as they are properly built and are set in a sufficiently rigid structure. I remember Oyster got a lot of flack for their deck salon windows from superstitious people in the 1990's ("dangerous in rough weather!"), but I believe no Oyster yacht has ever once suffereed a stove-in doghouse window despite millions of miles of ocean crossings.


By now probably most high end cruising boats, at least larger ones, have raised salons and large doghouse windows.


My boat has a raised salon, but quite narrow doghouse windows, making them smaller than those on similar Oysters. Nor do they open, unlike the case with Oysters. They are easier to engineer like that to be really really strong, but I wish they were larger, and opening.

Originally Posted by skipmac

Sorry but I just cannot agree. Not that this would make sense, but from an engineering standpoint windows can be designed and built or overbuilt to be the strongest part of the entire boat.

It's just a matter of using the right materials, the right design and construction, not just the glass but the framing and installation.

Absolutely right.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I would not make such a categorical statement. The issue with Essence was not large windows (they were quite small) but flexy hull and poor engineering of the glazing.


Larger windows are fine as long as they are properly built and are set in a sufficiently rigid structure. I remember Oyster got a lot of flack for their deck salon windows from superstitious people in the 1990's ("dangerous in rough weather!"), but I believe no Oyster yacht has ever once suffereed a stove-in doghouse window despite millions of miles of ocean crossings.


By now probably most high end cruising boats, at least larger ones, have raised salons and large doghouse windows.


My boat has a raised salon, but quite narrow doghouse windows, making them smaller than those on similar Oysters. Nor do they open, unlike the case with Oysters. They are easier to engineer like that to be really really strong, but I wish they were larger, and opening.





Absolutely right.

While essence lost a window. The report does not identify a structural reason for its loss. It’s not even clear if the glass failed or the frame failed.

Therefore it’s entirely speculation as to how or why it failed.

Any large window set in grp is vulnerable especially the trend towards frameless bonded in windows which solely rely on the grp

No one can say oyster or any other large window is safe. Most boats don’t loose their windows anyway , it requires considerable knock down pressure to blow in a window. It’s likely other things will also fail in those conditions.

[Joh.Ghurt]

Originally Posted by fc59

This is my strictly own opinion :

For a 40 footer, the Sirius is a very good seaworthy and comfortable sailboat.

For a 750 k€ sailboat, the Sirius sucks. A near 20 tons 54 foot Hanse 548 is less than 500 k€ base price. You can add a bunch of decent sails and dials, and other equipment for 250 k€.

A 20 tons 54" will be light years ahead in seaworthiness and comfort than a 11 tons 40 ".

This is the general question if sailboats (or anything) from boutique-manufactures ever are worth the premium. To be honest, whenever I was able afford it, I often went with the less flashy / smaller version of higher quality. It's the philosophy whether you pay for more ship to get what you need next to stuff you don't care about so much or you pay for exactly the amount of ship you need and you get it of better quality. Both approaches have their merits.

If I didn't need the additional space and berths of the Hanse 548, I would probably go with the Sirius 40DS, simply because I get tremendous joy out of owning things well crafted. No wonder German is probably the only language to have the word Spaltmaßfetisch [gap-width-fetish] as a commonly used word whereas in most other countries (besides Japan) people don't even know that such a concept exists.

[goboatingnow]

Boutique products appeal to people looking for unique products at exorbitant prices. It’s panders to the “ exclusivity “ complex. If you want a high proficiency boat , get a yacht designer and build.

[double u]

Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt

While the Sunbeam from Schöchl are lovely boats - they fall short of being German. They're from Austria. No clue why the original poster is so hung up on having a Teutonic boat and doesn't look at all offerings which meet his design-wishes and are available at his location.

...Austrian..., krautier than Kraut!!!

(& do not be deceived by the quality of a fitout/carpentrywork, it does not necessarily correlate with the quality of the fibreglass laminate...!)

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

. .. . No one can say oyster or any other large window is safe. Most boats don’t loose their windows anyway , it requires considerable knock down pressure to blow in a window. It’s likely other things will also fail in those conditions.

Why not? Oyster have been making them that way for 30 or 40 years, and Oyster yachts have been sailed in all kinds of conditions including the Southern Ocean with innumerable knockdowns, without a single failure. How can you say "no one can say they are safe"?


My own boat is a bit more conservatively built than Oyster (and Moody are known for super-rigid structure), but still the windows are quite a bit larger than in non-deck salon yachts. I have personally tested the windows in my boat under a breaking 12 meter sea in a storm in the North Sea, with full knockdown as a result. Tons and tons of water right onto my doghouse windows. Not a creak, not a drop of leakage.


If you can't say these windows are safe, then how can you say any structure is safe? Come on . . .

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt

This is the general question if sailboats (or anything) from boutique-manufactures ever are worth the premium. To be honest, whenever I was able afford it, I often went with the less flashy / smaller version of higher quality. It's the philosophy whether you pay for more ship to get what you need next to stuff you don't care about so much or you pay for exactly the amount of ship you need and you get it of better quality. Both approaches have their merits.

If I didn't need the additional space and berths of the Hanse 548, I would probably go with the Sirius 40DS, simply because I get tremendous joy out of owning things well crafted. No wonder German is probably the only language to have the word Spaltmaßfetisch [gap-width-fetish] as a commonly used word whereas in most other countries (besides Japan) people don't even know that such a concept exists.

Well, high end yachts are not just for those with Spaltmaßfetisch, it's not just prettiness. The structures are entirely different. Mass produced boats have glued-together structures with hull liners and prefabricated joinery. This is absolutely the best bang for the buck -- value for money, and probably 90% of sailors will be fine with this type of structure. But if you want something rigid and strong enough for any kind of circumstance in tough ocean conditions, then this type of structure is not optimal.



As someone mentioned, size might make up for somewhat less rigid structure, as larger boats have less structural stress and are inherently more seaworthy. Also something to think about. I'm not entirely sure that a 54 foot Hanse is going to be less strong than a 40 foot Sirius.



But size for size, a stick-built boat is chalk and cheese compared to a hull-liner mass produced boat, in terms of structure. Whether you need that extra strength depends on your use case. Where I sail, I am glad to have it.

[fc59]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The structures are entirely different. Mass produced boats have glued-together structures with hull liners and prefabricated joinery. This is absolutely the best bang for the buck -- value for money, .....

I fear it is very very very hard to find a production boat (not a one off) built other ways :

https://www.facebook.com/hallbergras...88771625565196
https://www.facebook.com/hallbergras...425277/?type=3
https://www.cossutti.it/en/portfolio-item/swan-48/

[double u]

"Spaltmaßfetisch" !!!!!!!!!!!!

[Muaddib1116]

Originally Posted by fc59

I fear it is very very very hard to find a production boat (not a one off) built other ways :

https://www.facebook.com/hallbergras...88771625565196
https://www.facebook.com/hallbergras...425277/?type=3
https://www.cossutti.it/en/portfolio-item/swan-48/

Even though HR is using structural grids that are made in separate molds, I would be shocked if they are no bonding them to the hull molds by glassing over the whole thing and tabbing it to the hull and bagging the whole process. This is functionally equivalent to laying up the frames and stringers directly on the hull mold. Whereas the production boats (as seen in Expedition Evans) are taking the grid they build and bonding it down with glue beads. Also the grid shown in your link for that HR 50 looks like it has much more coverage of the hull than what I saw in Expedition Evans' Beneteau 49. My Farr 50 PH, built by Najad almost 20 years ago has a frame/stringer grid that was built in a separate mold, but clearly was then laid up into the hull, not just glued in.

[Junk Viking]

It always amazes me how much hate and fear DS boats receive from "basement" boat owners.

Once you have sailed boats with 360 lookout from inside at a glance, it's very hard to go back to the "basement" experience.

The number of boats saved from dragging, early weather warning from clouds building in the distance, social interaction and community with all the helpfulness etc. that follows.

I get that there may be some increased structural risk in extreme situations, but what about up-sides and safety of a good lookout, better rest, comfort and energy that comes with a DS boat?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Muaddib1116

Even though HR is using structural grids that are made in separate molds, I would be shocked if they are no bonding them to the hull molds by glassing over the whole thing and tabbing it to the hull and bagging the whole process. This is functionally equivalent to laying up the frames and stringers directly on the hull mold. Whereas the production boats (as seen in Expedition Evans) are taking the grid they build and bonding it down with glue beads. Also the grid shown in your link for that HR 50 looks like it has much more coverage of the hull than what I saw in Expedition Evans' Beneteau 49. My Farr 50 PH, built by Najad almost 20 years ago has a frame/stringer grid that was built in a separate mold, but clearly was then laid up into the hull, not just glued in.

Indeed. And N.B. also that HR are pretty much unique among high end builders in partially adopting these construction methods. Contest, Discovery, Oyster, Swan, etc. don't build them that way.


I'm not saying it's necessarily bad, if it's done right. But I would need a lot of convincing before buying a boat like that.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Junk Viking

It always amazes me how much hate and fear DS boats receive from "basement" boat owners.

Once you have sailed boats with 360 lookout from inside at a glance, it's very hard to go back to the "basement" experience.

The number of boats saved from dragging, early weather warning from clouds building in the distance, social interaction and community with all the helpfulness etc. that follows.

I get that there may be some increased structural risk in extreme situations, but what about up-sides and safety of a good lookout, better rest, comfort and energy that comes with a DS boat?

Indeed.

But I would go further -- there is not need for any increased structural risk, if the boat is engineered and built properly. This might be expensive! But a DS boat can be built as strong as you want, and are willing to pay for.


Big windows on one of the world's premier expedition yachts:





Precious made affordable: Bestevaer 45 “Pure� |





https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sail...e-arctic-73056

Big window Oyster Deck Salon in Antarctica:



https://i.pinimg.com/originals/68/d1...e2d41320de.jpg


Maybe someone should tell them that big windows are unsuitable for offshore sailing. Doesn't look like they got the memo.

[donradcliffe]

No boat owner likes to hear about the downside of their choice of boat. Even though you may willing to take the risk offshore, I am sure that you will change your mind about deck salon boats after a season of cruising in the tropics. You will get very tired of running the genset and airconditioning every afternoon as the saloon hits 40C.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

No boat owner likes to hear about the downside of their choice of boat. Even though you may willing to take the risk offshore, I am sure that you will change your mind about deck salon boats after a season of cruising in the tropics. You will get very tired of running the genset and airconditioning every afternoon as the saloon hits 40C.

My boat would be no good in the tropics -- deck salon windows don't open and I don't have air conditioning.


I'm about to sail a Discovery 67 into the Caribbean from Spain. We'll see how that goes. But the forward deck salon windows do open, like Oysters do.


There's no "risk offshore" if the boat is properly built. A properly built doghouse window is stronger than the fiberglass of a lesser built boat.


And I'd rather run the air conditioning -- if it came to that -- and have light and a view out, than sit below in the "basement" like I did on my last boat. To each his own; I sure know my preference.


And this all the more in cold latitudes like where I sail -- in the tropics you live in the cockpit and on deck and get your fill of light and view before retiring below. Not so when it's +1C and there's sea ice floating by. For this use case I wouldn't have a "basement style" boat on a bet. Actually deck salon is not ideal either; the right tool for this is a proper pilothouse.


YMMV.