Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-11-2020, 07:39   #31
Registered User
 
SV__Grace's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Puget Sound, WA
Boat: Nauticat 43 ketch
Posts: 794
Images: 5
Re: full keel vs fin keel

Let's not leave weight/displacement out of the equation folks.

OP, you don't provide much information about your lifestyle other than you want sailing to be comfortable and you're OK going slow. Me too.

I've had both full keel and fin keel boats in 40 years of keel boat ownership and found a full keel to be most comfortable and forgiving in nasty conditions. If you like performance sailing a fin is the way to go, if you get caught out in 30 foot seas in a blow, you can't beat a full keel, especially if it has some weight to it.

My current boat is a bit of a hybrid- long fin keel with a skeg hung rudder, and being a heavy displacement cruiser it can handle anything in safety and (relative) comfort.

And don't believe anyone who says you can't back up a full keel boat, they just don't know how. If you use your prop walk/wash along with the proper technique you can turn any keel boat 360 degrees within is length, back up awkwardly but accurately, and crab sideways (in the direction of your prop walk) like you have thrusters.
SV__Grace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2020, 08:07   #32
Registered User
 
Scorpius's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Madeira Park, BC
Boat: Custom steel, 41' LOD
Posts: 1,387
Re: full keel vs fin keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV__Grace View Post
And don't believe anyone who says you can't back up a full keel boat, they just don't know how. If you use your prop walk/wash along with the proper technique you can turn any keel boat 360 degrees within is length, back up awkwardly but accurately, and crab sideways (in the direction of your prop walk) like you have thrusters.
Hear, hear.
Scorpius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2020, 08:22   #33
Registered User

Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 166
Re: full keel vs fin keel

Lots of chatter about weather helm...regardless of design, all boats have a little. If itís pronounced, you have excessive rudder angle. Proper rudder angle should be under 10 degrees. Any higher, and you need to trim your sails. Keel design is not a huge factor.
Sofa King Fishy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2020, 09:38   #34
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Kauai Hawaii
Boat: home built 31' Hartley Tasman
Posts: 294
Re: full keel vs fin keel

Yes! A resounding YES. Oh, and did I say YES? YES! lol

Keel fins reduce the wetted area under water, and lowering the drag which increases speed, they also offer more control at the helm, but to the cost of ease of sailing and comfort. Decide what the boat will be used for and that will be your choice of keel
sailorladd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2020, 10:23   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Portsmouth, UK
Boat: Westerly Conway 36ft
Posts: 961
Re: full keel vs fin keel

My boat has a long fin plus a long deadwood & doesnt really answer the rudder in reverse until doing maybe 3 knots - which in a confined marina is not good. I have learned when turning the boat astern to use the propwalk, not the rudder. In tight spaces always always turn with the propwalk, never against it. Use forward & reverse gear to turn almost within boat length. The technique I use is this: Put the wheel at full lock in the direction of turn (clockwise in my case) & just leave it there. If reversing out of my berth, when clear & needing to turn down the alley I blip the throttle in reverse to start the swing to port, then as the swing slows, I blip in forward, then again in reverse, etc. The point is that in reverse the prop wash is going forward so away from the rudder which has no effect, but the prop walk is taking the stern to port (on my boat). In forward gear the prop wash is going aft, bouncing off the angled rudder to starboard thus also moving the stern to port. By blipping the throttle only, you get the turning effects without the thrust having time to overcome the inertia of the boat, so you dont actually move forwards or backwards very much if at all, you just turn. By watching & using the momentum of the swing, allowing good time between gear changes for the revs to settle, & not turning the wheel at all in the turn, you look cool & relaxed to your crew & any bystanders (because of course you ARE cool & relaxed). I actually got a round of applause from another boat once, although I think it was inspired by their relief when they realised I was able to turn in the very limited available space without hitting them. Knowing your boat is always key.
Clivevon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2020, 10:25   #36
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Portsmouth, UK
Boat: Westerly Conway 36ft
Posts: 961
Re: full keel vs fin keel

The point being that in tight spaces I always manoeuvre in ahead, not astern, turning the boat as necessary to do so.
Clivevon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2020, 10:27   #37
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Portsmouth, UK
Boat: Westerly Conway 36ft
Posts: 961
Re: full keel vs fin keel

And of course being aware of the effects of wind & tide...
Clivevon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2020, 10:49   #38
Registered User
 
markpierce's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Central California
Boat: M/V Carquinez Coot
Posts: 3,782
Re: full keel vs fin keel

Our Columbia Defender/29 routinely out-sailed a Cal 28 on races. Or maybe we were just better sailors and winds were frequently strong.
__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2020, 14:39   #39
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Florida
Boat: Swallow Craft, Swift 33
Posts: 275
Re: full keel vs fin keel

IMHO a full Keel boat is a fantastic straight lined boat! A fin keel, spade rudder is fantastic for maneuvering. What do you want?
cottonsail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2020, 01:09   #40
Registered User
 
SailMoonShadow's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Plymouth, UK
Boat: Sigma Yachts, Sigma362, 36ft
Posts: 50
Re: full keel vs fin keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
My view: when cruising, most folks spend very little time actually steering their boat. Mostly an autopilot or windvane is doing the job for them. And if the boat is happy being steered by such a device, then it is suitable for cruising.

And TP, believe it or not, many fin keel boats are not only happy under such conditions, quite a few will self-steer by balancing the sail properly, just like your full keel boat will.
My S&S 30 would hold her course with the wind anywhere forward of the beam without even lashing the tiller. And for t hat matter, we did ~2000 miles in her, returning from Hawaii after her silly little autohelm 2000 tiller pilot died, using only sheet-to-tiller steering.

Of course, not all fin keelers are so polite, but I can say with a great deal of confidence (having encountered so very many such boats in distant anchorages) that even the more fractious ones do indeed make long cruising passages with happy crews... only the autopilots are stressed out by the design of the boat.

Blanket statements, like the one quoted above, have mislead a lot of newbies (and experienced folks as well) into making poor choices. Analysis of each individual design yields a better understanding of the potential of a b oat than all encompassing platitudes.

Jim
I have relatively limited experience but would full endorse Jim's comments. I have a fin/spade boat (Sigma 362) and she sails perfectly well under windvane. In a recent 28 hour passage across the English Channel I touched the helm twice to alter course.

The key to comfort imho is to have the sails balanced/reefed for the conditions.

The only disadvantage of the fin/spade configuration is the vulnerability of the rudder - don't ask me how I know...

Good luck
Paul
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG-20200723-WA0002.jpg
Views:	77
Size:	408.7 KB
ID:	226376  
SailMoonShadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2020, 02:51   #41
Registered User
 
capnorv's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Bainbridge Island Washington on the Salish Sea
Boat: Hardin 45 Voyager Alice B., Gig Harbor 10, Orca 7 1/2 sloop, 16' sea kayak
Posts: 439
Images: 1
Re: full keel vs fin keel

I've had a couple of both. Sporting daysailing and marina manuverability, a fin keeler would be my choice. Comfort, stowage, directional stability, beach ability, a full keel boat is great. My favorite was our Bob Perry designed Hans Christian 34, which we lived aboard for five years, and cruised for eight.
capnorv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2020, 07:26   #42
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 77
Re: full keel vs fin keel

"Heel angle creates a longer waterline on the lee side and a shorter on the windward. (windward hull aeration on a cat)

Lee side can sail faster than the slower windward side causing boat to round up."


Great succinct explanation. I thought it had more to do with the curve of the hull. Thanks for that lesson.
ShinyHappy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2020, 09:11   #43
Registered User
 
wingssail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: On Vessel WINGS, wherever there's an ocean, currently in Mexico
Boat: Serendipity 43
Posts: 5,523
Send a message via AIM to wingssail Send a message via Skype™ to wingssail
Re: full keel vs fin keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
Drcaptain:

What people have said in the preceding posts is all unassailable, but I think you need to delve further into boat behaviour than these answers will permit you to do.

Every boat ever built or designed was built or designed for a specific purpose. Therefore, to select a boat sensibly for YOUR purposes, you need to know and specify with some precision what YOUR purposes are. Let's paint with broad strokes for a moment: Are you a cruising man, or are you a racing man? Boats that suit cruising men are in concept and design entirely different from boats that suit racing men.

TP, are you sure that everyone must be one or the other? Because where does that put me? I've spent the last 50 years on sailing boats, racing (literaly 1000's of races), cruising (over 55,000 miles), living aboard (34 years) teaching sailing, skippering, consulting,etc. Now you tell me I have to decide if I am a cruising man or a racing man? And I wonder about the large number of sailors who cruise here to Mexico (on a variety of boats) and then participate in races. Are they all bi-polar messes?

I think your abitrary division is total poppy cock. And besides, you are talking to the OP who does not know much at all, and certainly is not an experienced racing sailor, and you ask him, "Are you a racing man or a cruising man?" What can he say? Of course you know that, and you set him up, then you proceed to tell him why, since he is a "cruising man" he wants a full keel boat, based on false claims. My MY.


Not to put too fine a point on that, but boats with FIN KEELS are boats for racing men, NOT for cruising men,

Here we go again, another poppy cock statement. One of my good friends loves racing, and he has a Westsail 42, which he is dedicated to. Another old friend has been racing his Baba40 full keel boat for 30 years. And on the opposite tack, I have been cruising all my life, and yet you are saying my beloved Wings "is not for me"?

although for a number of reasons that have to do with marketing and very little to do with naval architecture, the vast majority of boats you will find in the "new to you" market will be fin keeled boats.

Wrong again. The vast majority of new boats are fin keeled because they sail better and that is what prospective owners want to buy.

That is precisely why you "felt like (you were) constantly fighting with the tiller and sail trim". That is how a racing man's boat is SUPPOSED to feel, and that is why racing boats are by and large unsuitable, or at least bloody awkward, for cruising.

Oh my gosh, every sentence of yours is filled with misinformation. No race boat is SUPPOSED to feel like that. Race boats are suposed to glide along without fighting anything, because fighting the helm and sail trim is slow. Why on earth would someone who wants their design to win races make one which is slow because of unbalanced helm or sails?

The long and the short of it is that being on passage, when cruising, can be excruciatingly boring. In a well-mannered cruising boat there is nothing to do, and out of sight of land there is nothing to see. BOOOring! Therefore many people, so many that they dominate the market, go for racing boats rather than cruising boats just so they will have something to do - fighting the helm, yanking on this rope and that.

Wait, Wait, You are saying that people buy a difficult boat so they have something to do while crossing oceans? Fighting with the boat?

When done right, in the right company, that can be tremendously exciting and satisfying. Whether or not YOU find it so depends on how desperate you are for an adrenalin rush :-). It can also be tremendously expensive even if you only race in minor local events such as the Swiftsure Race out of Victoria BC. Don't even think of racing for America's cup!

And now you say that Swiftsure is a minor local race? Honestly I think you must be trolliing us to get responses. Silly me, I fell for it.

So let us know whether you want to be a cruising man or a racing man, and where you wish to sail since boats need to be designed for specific waters. Then we can make far sounder suggestions about what kind (and what make and model) of boat will suit your purposes. If you don't mind falling between chairs you are, of course, quite free to buy a boat designated "Cruiser/Racer". Still, better to know thine own self and buy a boat that is good at what YOU want it to do!

I hope that sets you to thinking :-)

All the best,

TrentePieds
When I see statements like this I usually figure that the person speaking does not know what they are talking about, and that they simply charge it off to "Oh that guy is a racer".
__________________
These lines upon my face tell you the story of who I am but these stories don't mean anything
when you've got no one to tell them to Fred Roswold Wings https://wingssail.blogspot.com/
wingssail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2020, 09:34   #44
Moderator
 
Pete7's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Solent, England
Boat: Moody 31
Posts: 18,553
Images: 22
Re: full keel vs fin keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter loveridge View Post
one thing not so far mentioned. If you live or go off the beaten track no travellifts, etc, and you have to dry out alongside a wharf to do maintenance, a full keel will give you a lot less grief
Really? compared to what

Pete
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Twin Keels.JPG
Views:	80
Size:	197.0 KB
ID:	226400  
Pete7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2020, 14:16   #45
Registered User
 
Ken Fry's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Atlanta, on way to NC coast
Boat: Custom 31' rigid wing cat
Posts: 224
Re: full keel vs fin keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drcaptain View Post

...

they were prone to weatherhelm and would heel easily

i thought the full keel would resist the twisting to windward motion associated with weatherhelm and the heavier displacement, and more wetted hull area would improve stability

...

are my assumptions correct?
Your assumptions are not entirely wrong.

Virtually any fin keel or full keel boat can be adjusted (or trimmed, or sailed) to have a neutral helm (or weather helm or lee helm).

On average, I'd say that your observation that fin keel boats heel more easily is incorrect. Many full keel boats are initially tender and are designed to sail at larger heel angles than more modern boats. A J-24 sailed with more than 7 degrees of heel is being sailed poorly, while a Columbia Contender (same LOA) often sails competitively at 20 degrees.

Full keel boats are generally slower, more sluggish to maneuver, and can be a handful in reversing in tight quarters. Some track very well, however (but a fin keel with a skeg rudder can be very good in this respect as well). For most sailors, a fin keel offers the better compromise, which is why 90% of modern monohulls from 30 to 60 feet have fin (or modified fin) keels.

A fin keel boat sailed with a lot of heel may develop a large amount of weather helm, indicating that it is being poorly sailed, rather than an inferiority in keel design.

Any sailor should spend a lot of time with each to determine which fits best. I've owned both, and would not chose a full-keeled boat, unless there were compelling other reasons to chose the boat (classically beautiful lines, perfectly restored, etc.) Fin keel boats are just faster and more responsive. But some people would rather drive an SUV than a sports car.

It's entirely personal preference.
Ken Fry is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
keel

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Full keel vs fin keel for offshore? Tidjian Monohull Sailboats 488 08-06-2021 17:04
Fin Keel vs. Full Keel Rayallyn Monohull Sailboats 201 04-09-2011 04:14
Full Keel or Fin Keel? RedDragonSails Monohull Sailboats 23 06-10-2008 12:09

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:55.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.