Full Keel Sailboats

[lyl]

Originally Posted by thomm225

They are perfect for where you are and you can learn sailing best on light, fast, small boats.

Racing them even teaches you more.

Many of the guys in that video I posted are from Pensacola or Ft. Walton Beach FL and have been sailing since they were kids and sailed during the Beach Cat boom years of the 70's, 80's, and 90's.

The Worrell 1000 which is sailed in the Atlantic Ocean was first sailed using Hobie 16's.

In 1997, we had 82 boats on the starting line for the yearly 100 mile Beach Cat race out of Ft Walton Beach FL at 7 am. It was a beautiful site when they all hoisted their spinnakers. (those that had spinnakers)

On a windy day, on lake, they rock, but in waves, they act like a plastic duck in bathtub.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Full

On a windy day, on lake, they rock, but in waves, they act like a plastic duck in bathtub.

Yeah, consider if you were racing against 20 of them.......

In beach cat racing, they would call/postpone the race if winds held above 21 knots steady for 5 minutes.

[capn_billl]

Originally Posted by Full

i know u r joking, but i have to say i'm in love with my wife. so i'll be sailing a cat, big deal...

I went down the same path.

After buying an old trailer sailer, and a small expo, and having a few adventures on each she finally went with me sailboat shopping.

We started looking at a Catalina 27. The AC was a window unit with an extension cord to shore.

When we got into 40 ft mono's the price had climbed considerably, and she still wasn't happy with either the heeling, or the limited interior space.

Then we looked at CAT's.

I wasn't confident at sailing a rig that big, but she loved it.

And it had a huge generator, and AC units for each cabin.

SO we bought it.

The sailing wasn't as hard as I thought. The sail plan practically sails itself.

Getting the mainsail up the first few times was a hassle, the battens tangled on the lazyjack lines every 5 ft up the 70 ft mast. But after we learned to have one person watch, and call out directions with one hand on the mainsheets, and the other one had one hand on the wheel, and the other on the electric winch button, we soon got the main up with only one snag per hoist.

Tacking, and Jibing was a big event with white knuckled fear, and jumping through a mess of tangled 5/8 inch lines, and deciding which windlass went to which sheet. But after a few time of the lines zipping through the blocks with a loud hiss, a half acre of sail flogging in the wind with a loud crack, and much shouting, and pointing in sheer panic...

We figured it out.

Even my wife who was a complete noobe quickly learned which jib sheet to preload on the winch when I yelled TACK! ( I replaced the sheets until each was color coded).

We learned to release the main, then just let the line sit on a single wrap around the winch, and worry just about the jib until we completed the tack.

Once the tack was complete the friction of the single wrap gave us plenty of time to trim the jib before the main was in position to lock down.

Tacks, and even jibes became a non event, with her just stepping up to the helm to grab the port side sheets, while I managed the starboard sheets, and turned the wheel.

Then she would go back to her very comfortable sunpad.

Every boat has one cabin that collects junk.
(life jackets, sails, spare lines, tools, cases of water, oil jugs, shop vac, etc...)

In the CAT, that stuff goes in the OTHER hull, out of sight until needed.

And the only time we use the AC is at dock.

[KaiMarin]

The only thing about full keel boats, is they dont reverse worth **** and they are difficult to control if the prop is right in front of rudder.Im goin going try a max prop and see if this is the answer. Currently in a Morgan 45 w these issues. Any body?

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by KaiMarin

The only thing about full keel boats, is they dont reverse worth **** and they are difficult to control if the prop is right in front of rudder.Im goin going try a max prop and see if this is the answer. Currently in a Morgan 45 w these issues. Any body?

I hear yah.

The folks at Morgans Cloud//Attainable Adventures have a online “book” on docking and address this issue in detail. I have not tried it out yet but their recommendations look promising.

It s behind a pay wall but there may be a teaser into that works. But also the site is one of the few worth supporting so there is that.

[psjanker]

Originally Posted by Full

By the bye, wife likes Lagoon 40 / 42...

My wife has issues with boats in general (comes from a family whose males had mistresses with hulls) but even she made a comment about how she liked the Lagoon 42. Much like the accommodations on a nice cruise ship!

I found it to be a great ride but that cat slap for a two thousand mile beat to the West Indies was something I will never get use to.

V/r

Pete

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by KaiMarin

The only thing about full keel boats, is they dont reverse worth **** and they are difficult to control if the prop is right in front of rudder.Im goin going try a max prop and see if this is the answer. Currently in a Morgan 45 w these issues. Any body?

Certainly my long keel hates reverse but with my outboard I am able to manage it no problemo, but my buddy with his Luders 30 often has to just manage whatever happens when he backs out of the slip. Its kind of like flying, any landing you walk away from is a good one. (Any leaving your slip that doesn't involve any boat damage is a good one.) In his case there is often a bit of jockeying and having the prop right in front of the keel is a very GOOD thing so you can give a brief forward blast to kick the stern around; it gives you more control, not less. And only quick blasts of reverse to get her moving is preferable to continuous application of reverse. I used to sail a Downeast 38 and that strategy worked well for me in that boat as well. And if you have to back all the way out of the fairway, so be it and just wave to everybody staring at you.
Now a boat like the Albin Vega with prop behind the rudder would be much harder to deal with I would bet.

[psjanker]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Certainly my long keel hates reverse but with my outboard I am able to manage it no problemo, but my buddy with his Luders 30 often has to just manage whatever happens when he backs out of the slip. Its kind of like flying, any landing you walk away from is a good one. (Any leaving your slip that doesn't involve any boat damage is a good one.) In his case there is often a bit of jockeying and having the prop right in front of the keel is a very GOOD thing so you can give a brief forward blast to kick the stern around; it gives you more control, not less. And only quick blasts of reverse to get her moving is preferable to continuous application of reverse. I used to sail a Downeast 38 and that strategy worked well for me in that boat as well. And if you have to back all the way out of the fairway, so be it and just wave to everybody staring at you.
Now a boat like the Albin Vega with prop behind the rudder would be much harder to deal with I would bet.

In regards to any landing one can walk away from being good…..any docking when afterwards one can reuse the boat is an excellent docking!
V/r

Pete

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by psjanker

In regards to any landing one can walk away from being good…..any docking when afterwards one can reuse the boat is an excellent docking!
V/r

Pete

And where you haven't caused any damage to anyone else's boat too!

[flosrv123]

Hello! I'm planning to buy a tayana 37 soon!
I guess you have already bought your boat! If you don't mind, I'm very interested in some tricks and tips you guys may have to move the Full keel boat in marina, anchorages or closed spaces !
Thanks in advance

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by flosrv123

Hello! I'm planning to buy a tayana 37 soon!
I guess you have already bought your boat! If you don't mind, I'm very interested in some tricks and tips you guys may have to move the Full keel boat in marina, anchorages or closed spaces !
Thanks in advance

Below is what I've learned since moving up to a big enough beast that I had to learn these skills to survive docking and handling our boat in close quarters.

It takes a bit of practice and understanding the dynamics, but by using prop walk you can easily turn your boat 360 degrees within it's own length.

A left hand rotation prop means prop walk in reverse is to SB and prop wash in forward is to port, meaning in reverse she will want to pull her stern to SB and in forward she excels when turning to port.

A right hand rotation prop means prop walk in reverse is to Port and prop wash forward is to SB, meaning in reverse she will want to pull her stern to Port and in forward she excels when turning to SB.

To make a 360 turn within 1 boat length with a left hand rotation prop just keep the wheel turned to SB and shift between forward and reverse either in idle or a small amount of throttle to slowly make a tight counter clockwise turn and you'll have all the control you need for close quarters (with practice). Go sloooowww....

The opposite for right hand rotation prop- clockwise turning.

And you can use prop walk/wash to crab your boat sideways in the direction of prop walk, which for left hand rotation would be to SB, so turn your wheel to SB and alternate forward and reverse to go sideways to SB rather than in a circle. With a bit of practice gawkers will think you have thrusters.

The opposite for right hand rotation prop- crabbing will be to Port.

A couple of tips we've learned are useful-

1. Practice lassoing a cleat from the deck and you remove anxiety about being too far from a dock when docking. With a long enough dock line you should be able to throw a bight over a cleat from 10-15 feet away.

2. Learn to spring off and on a side tie dock (true for any boat).

3. Use a grapnel when needed to pull yourself into bull rails when cleats aren't available.

4. Remember that our rudder is located aft, which means in forward or reverse the boat turns from the stern. This phenomenon helps controlling your boat in reverse and is what makes crabbing work- you're controlling the bow by pointing the stern. Once you've got this down you've finally broken free from how we habitually steer a car to master our boat.

[flosrv123]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

Below is what I've learned since moving up to a big enough beast that I had to learn these skills to survive docking and handling our boat in close quarters.

It takes a bit of practice and understanding the dynamics, but by using prop walk you can easily turn your boat 360 degrees within it's own length.

A left hand rotation prop means prop walk in reverse is to SB and prop wash in forward is to port, meaning in reverse she will want to pull her stern to SB and in forward she excels when turning to port.

A right hand rotation prop means prop walk in reverse is to Port and prop wash forward is to SB, meaning in reverse she will want to pull her stern to Port and in forward she excels when turning to SB.

To make a 360 turn within 1 boat length with a left hand rotation prop just keep the wheel turned to SB and shift between forward and reverse either in idle or a small amount of throttle to slowly make a tight counter clockwise turn and you'll have all the control you need for close quarters (with practice). Go sloooowww....

The opposite for right hand rotation prop- clockwise turning.

And you can use prop walk/wash to crab your boat sideways in the direction of prop walk, which for left hand rotation would be to SB, so turn your wheel to SB and alternate forward and reverse to go sideways to SB rather than in a circle. With a bit of practice gawkers will think you have thrusters.

The opposite for right hand rotation prop- crabbing will be to Port.

A couple of tips we've learned are useful-

1. Practice lassoing a cleat from the deck and you remove anxiety about being too far from a dock when docking. With a long enough dock line you should be able to throw a bight over a cleat from 10-15 feet away.

2. Learn to spring off and on a side tie dock (true for any boat).

3. Use a grapnel when needed to pull yourself into bull rails when cleats aren't available.

4. Remember that our rudder is located aft, which means in forward or reverse the boat turns from the stern. This phenomenon helps controlling your boat in reverse and is what makes crabbing work- you're controlling the bow by pointing the stern. Once you've got this down you've finally broken free from how we habitually steer a car to master our boat.

Thank you very much for your exhaustive reply!
So actually when you say turn to P/SB, means turning the wheel totally, not just a bit but at the most we can do, right?
And so the stern will basically turn around the bow that will not move much forward!
Thanks for all these tips I'll apply them!

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by flosrv123

Thank you very much for your exhaustive reply!
So actually when you say turn to P/SB, means turning the wheel totally, not just a bit but at the most we can do, right?
And so the stern will basically turn around the bow that will not move much forward!
Thanks for all these tips I'll apply them!

Oops, I think I transposed the wheel position in my post above-

For a right hand rotating prop (more common in the US) making a clockwise turn using prop walk and wash the wheel goes to SB as you are turning in that direction- reverse kicks you to Port and forward pushes you to SB. Prop walk in reverse will go to Port regardless of rudder position, the rudder for this turn stays to SB.

Reverse that for a Left hand prop, I apologize if I confused anyone!

Normally you put the tranny in neutral if you have enough motion and let the boat turn as far as possible by itself. A burst of power forward will cause prop wash against the rudder enough to continue turning without going noticeably forward, which is the secret to crabbing sideways.

Try it! Takes longer to explain than to do it and it’s much easier than you might think.

I’ve learned NEVER to try to turn in tight spaces opposite prop wash. Whenever I get lazy and think I can take a shortcut and turn to Port in forward I regret it, so now I always take the long way around and turn to SB in forward unless I have LOTS of room.

[rotrax]

Long keelers have some attributes fin keel boats dont. These attributes come with shortcomings too.


All boats are a compromise.


We sacrifice marina manouverability, going to windward and leeway for a sea kindly non slamming ride, comfort alongside or on the hook and a heavy well built boat.


To prospective newcomers to long or full keels - the first ten years are the worst!

[jalmberg]

Originally Posted by flosrv123

Thank you very much for your exhaustive reply!
So actually when you say turn to P/SB, means turning the wheel totally, not just a bit but at the most we can do, right?
And so the stern will basically turn around the bow that will not move much forward!
Thanks for all these tips I'll apply them!

You can turn 360 without moving at all using prop wash, as well. Basically the boat rotates in place. The procedure is simple:

1. Stop the boat
2. Turn the wheel/tiller completely to the favored side
3. Put the engine in gear
4. Throttle quickly up to high speed, the boat will start to rotate
5. When the boat starts to move forward, throttle down, put in reverse, throttle up. Boat will stop but continue to rotate
6. When boat starts to move in reverse, throttle down, put in forward gear, and throttle up.

Continue until turn is complete. The wheel stays hard over. You want to execute this process smartly to keep the boat turning without moving forward or backwards. A bow thruster will help speed the turn but isn’t necessary.

To discover your boats favored side, stop the boat, then put her in reverse and quickly throttle up to high speed. The stern will walk to port or starboard. Mine walks to port, meaning I make turns to starboard using the above technique.

This fall I had to maneuver down a narrow lane between two docks packed with expensive boats, and then do a 180 in place to get in position to back into a travel lift. Long keel boats (mine is as long as they come!) can maneuver into tight spaces quite well. It just takes practice and confidence.

Before trying this around other boats, the prudent will check their throttle and gear cables. You really don’t want them to fail while doing this!

Pick your time. If you need to stay in place, pick slack tide and with at most a moderate breeze, otherwise the wind and/or tide will obviously cause drift; a strong enough wind will overcome propwash altogether and keep you pinned broadside to it. But in the right conditions it works great.