Frustrated finding a boat. help please

[VinnyVincent]

Originally Posted by Paul J. Nolan

Apparently, this is the thread topic that will not die.

With all due respect and goodwill, may I speak frankly?

You and your wife have neither the budget or the ability for a 38 ft. boat. Let's take budget first. Only one half, or better, one third of your funds are available for the initial purchase price. The remainder of your money will be (quickly) eaten up by repairs, maintenance, and necessary equipment purchases and upgrades. Everything on a boat is expensive. For proof, call up the local North or Quantum loft and ask for a quote on a 150% genoa for a Catalina 38. She's a well known stock boat, so he can give it to you right over the phone. If you remain unconvinced, price a 35 pound anchor (Rocna, perhaps) and 10 fathoms of chain and 35 fathoms of nyion. Sails and ground tackle are essential gear for coastal cruising, which we must note is the most challenging and dangerous type of sailing, short of polar exploration. While I think the ideal cruiser for a couple is a Contessa 32, even she is out of your range. The man who suggested a Catalina 27 was spot-on. The outboard-powered dinette model can be had in perfect condition and well equipped for $7,000. She fits in your budget and her gear will be much less expensive than that of even a 33 footer. She will also be far easier to handle and maintain than the boat you now have in your mind. Which brings us to the second point, your ability...

Learn to sail before you go cruising. Learn to sail before you buy a cruising boat. Learn to sail before you make many plans or set big goals. In short, learn to sail. There is a Lightning fleet in Nashville, at least there was when I raced in the class. Contact the fleet secretary and tell him you and your wife want to learn to sail. Many skippers are looking for crew and are willing to teach a novice if he or she will crew regularity for him (meaning all, or almost all, races in the season). If the fleet is an active one you two will have a lot of fun, make new friends, and quickly learn a lot. You should also get a couple of copies of The Sports Illustrated Book Of Small Boat Sailing. Long out of print, but available as a used book on Amazon. Read it several times and discuss it together before you first go sailing.

And remember, sailing is like sex. The learning is as much fun as the doing.

Good luck and keep in touch.

Paul

(For information on the Lightning, Google ILCA and scroll down several entries.)

Totally agree and researching the buying of boats is something I have continued to do after buying my first cruiser, in anticipation of getting something newer/better later on down the line.
The more I research, the more I am leaning toward a smaller boat as I learn what the real costs associated with maintaining 28ft boat are.(MUCH more than I expected. Every little thing really adds up)

Originally Posted by Freemind

From what reading I have done they don't sound to be put together as well as some of the others. Problems with keel separation from the hull, plywood sandwich in some bulkheads and such.
It's possible we will end up with a catalina, but are looking at others right now.
Still thinking hard about some of what has been advised in this thread also.
Thankyou guys for the input. It is appreciated.

You also have to consider your budget.
you can get a LOT of Catalina 27 for 10k.
If you take that same 10k and spend it on a "bluewater" boat of the same size, it's not going to be in nearly as good of condition.

Sure the "bluewater boat" might be more seaworthy if they are both in the exact same condition, but consider this;
The catalina 27 might have new rigging, new seacocks, rebuilt rudder, new compression post, newer sails(and more of them) and in general will have been more meticulously maintained. It will likely also have upgraded systems on it...pretty much ready to do some coastal cruising as-is. You can dump(and pun is intended, it will go FAST) your other 15k into upgrades to make it more suitable for your needs.

The "bluewater" boat for the same price may have been poorly maintained. Leaking deck fittings that have not been re-bed may mean soft decks, leaking windows, original seacocks and rigging, rudder that has been in the water for 30+/- years without inspection, corroded mast base on the keel stepped mast, ect.

Without spending a great deal of additional money on either, which do you think is more seaworthy?

That "bluewater" boat can easily cost you 40k total just to get it in comparable condition as that catalina already was for 10k.

38ft boat, ready to go for 25K?? LOL...you can forget about that idea.

[Paul J. Nolan]

Originally Posted by Freemind

From what reading I have done they don't sound to be put together as well as some of the others. Problems with keel separation from the hull, plywood sandwich in some bulkheads and such.

While Catalina's boats will never be confused with those of Hinckley or Camper and Nocholson (or Jeremy Rogers, for that matter) they do provide a lot of value for the dollar. While lightly built, we are talking about the west coast of Florida, not Patagonia. But you would also be well served by a Pearson 26. An Albin Vega is a well built boat, but I think your wife might find the headroom and dinette in the Catalina more to her liking. All deck-stepped spars eventually give problems. Any old glass boat should have her bulkheads and chainplates scrutinized closely. At least with a Catalina 27, you know to what items you will want to direct your surveyor's attention.

But this discussion puts the cart before the horse. First learn to sail. Then think about buying a boat.

Paul

[Freemind]

I do hear what y'all are saying, but here are some I've tagged in my bookmarks. Curios what you guys think.
Sorry if this thread is irritating to some of you. I'm just trying to learn.
1984 CAL 35 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

1984 CAL 35 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

1970 Columbia 36 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
I REALLY like this one below.
http://www.edwardsyachtsales.com/sea...searchtype=buy

Another really nice one.
1984 Endeavour 35 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

We are going to go visit marinas , talk to people and learn to sail , also probably charter before we buy.
Thank you for all the input.

[Paul J. Nolan]

Reserved

[JPA Cate]

Freemind,

Until you learn to sail, how do you know if you or your wife won't get seasick? It is one thing that happens that it takes an extremely determined person to put up with, and it usually takes months/years before you can handle it without medication of some sort. (Read up on motion sickness and night vision for pilots.)

Furthermore, as to the psychology of getting involved in sailing, you're going to have to make it fun for your wife if you hope she will continue cruising over time. That is part of why both of you should sail before you go for your main goal. Another part is that both of you will feel safer with the knowledge that both of you are competent.

The suggestion to start small and via club racing is one easy, low cost, way to start learning to sail, and learning about boats by experience, and personally, I think you'd find it fun.

My Jim started out with a 15 ft. O'Day, then a Catalina 22, a Yankee 30, a Standfast 36, and finally this boat. I understand fully that you want to take your granddaughters sailing, but a coastal cruising boat is really too heavy, too big for lake sailing. For that, you'll want something light, responsive, fun to sail, and easily transported. I'd go for a trailer sailer first, but sailing Other People's boats is how many of us old timers learned.
Classes were for the hotshots.

Something to be aware of for the long haul is that boats don't stay fixed up. Things quit working. Some are little things, no biggie, if you have the spares and the knowledge to fix stuff. The folks who don't have to pay other people to fix their stuff, who are sometimes not terribly effective fixers, and frequently jobs are not done on time. So, unless you're the kind of fellow who is handy with his hands for fixing *stuff*, yacht ownership may turn out to cost more than you anticipate.

Ann

[Paul J. Nolan]

You have a 27 foot budget and 35 foot dreams.

Paul

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by Freemind

I do hear what y'all are saying, but here are some I've tagged in my bookmarks. Curios what you guys think.
Sorry if this thread is irritating to some of you. I'm just trying to learn.
1984 CAL 35 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

1984 CAL 35 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

1970 Columbia 36 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
I REALLY like this one below.
http://www.edwardsyachtsales.com/sea...searchtype=buy

Another really nice one.
1984 Endeavour 35 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

We are going to go visit marinas , talk to people and learn to sail , also probably charter before we buy.
Thank you for all the input.

It would be helpful to know why you favor the Columbia?

All of these boats will eat up 25K pretty quickly. Think about survey expense, sales tax, registration, slip fees, insurance, all immediately due during or right after the purchase. Then there is bottom paint, maintenance, etc. After you have spent that, a lot of the expenses start again in 12 months.

Also, you are having doubts about a Catalina because of what you have read? Keep in mind that opinions are just that and you really have no basis as how to evaluate them. A lot of people who have never owned a boat are quite happy to tell others what they should not do.

For example, look at all of the boats Catalina has built and continues to build. That alone is a testimonial. These boats are made for coastal cruising which is what you will be doing once you get off the lake.

There were so many of them built (because they are so popular), that there is always a market for them. That will be important when you are done with it.

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by Freemind

I do hear what y'all are saying, but here are some I've tagged in my bookmarks. Curios what you guys think.
Sorry if this thread is irritating to some of you. I'm just trying to learn.
1984 CAL 35 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

1984 CAL 35 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

1970 Columbia 36 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
I REALLY like this one below.
http://www.edwardsyachtsales.com/sea...searchtype=buy

Another really nice one.
1984 Endeavour 35 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

We are going to go visit marinas , talk to people and learn to sail , also probably charter before we buy.
Thank you for all the input.

Unsubscribed.

[Paul Annapolis]

To the OP I believe you are repeating the same mistake that many other novices are doing ...over and over and over again...and as I have seen before, despite many well intentioned responses from well meaning and good and more experienced sailors, you are apparently still fixated or focused or perhaps even fantasizing abut specific boats--and boats in a wide range of ages, styles, conditions, locations etc etc and you admitted you have little or no experience and many of us are suggesting you start slowly, look at small boats, take your time etc...and what happens? You ask us for advice about a handful of specific boats for sale, and based on your limited experience, I'll best most esperienced sailors would warn you that you are biting off more than you can chew, jumping ahead too fast and do not know what you are in for. You wrote that "We are going to go visit marinas , talk to people and learn to sail , also probably charter before we buy. Thank you for all the input." That is a good way to go, but looking at and asking for advice about specific boats? Way too early for that and it will likely not serve you very effectively. I suggest you take formal lessons and buy a small boat. Enjoy it for a year or two and then maybe you'll be ready to comfortably jump to a cruiser.

[VinnyVincent]

Originally Posted by Freemind

I do hear what y'all are saying, but here are some I've tagged in my bookmarks. Curios what you guys think.
Sorry if this thread is irritating to some of you. I'm just trying to learn.
1984 CAL 35 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

1984 CAL 35 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

1970 Columbia 36 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
I REALLY like this one below.
http://www.edwardsyachtsales.com/sea...searchtype=buy

Another really nice one.
1984 Endeavour 35 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

We are going to go visit marinas , talk to people and learn to sail , also probably charter before we buy.
Thank you for all the input.

Buy the one for 27k with a 25k budget. It's a good idea. Happy now?

[Crisco41]

Thanks for the helpful answers for the questions freemind and I, (Mrs freemind) have.
I am aware of how inexperienced folks are supposed to learn new sklls. I was told almost the exact same thing we are being advised here, 40 yrs ago from the horse community when I bought a horse and taught myself to ride. Yep, made some mistakes and yep, took longer to be a good rider. I do believe there are several ways to learn new skills and i expect we will become good sailors Whichever way we go about it. We do not intend to buy a 38 ft sailboat and go across the pacific. We know we have alot to learn.
There's not much freemind can't fix -electric, mechanical,, plumbing etc. I never have to call in a service guy!. Ever.That should help .
I get "smaller boat. "good to learn on, cheaper, less Costly upkeep, but Think 3 teenage girls pms ing. Would u want a small boat?
As for sea.sickness Joe's done navy on a ship. It will probably be me puking. As I listen to the 3 girl teen drama. On a tiny boat..Lol

[Crisco41]

Originally Posted by VinnyVincent

Buy the one for 27k with a 25k budget. It's a good idea. Happy now?

A Lil sarcastic today?

[Crisco41]

Like your thinking ; )

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by Crisco41

Thanks for the helpful answers for the questions freemind and I, (Mrs freemind) have.
I am aware of how inexperienced folks are supposed to learn new sklls. I was told almost the exact same thing we are being advised here, 40 yrs ago from the horse community when I bought a horse and taught myself to ride. Yep, made some mistakes and yep, took longer to be a good rider. I do believe there are several ways to learn new skills and i expect we will become good sailors Whichever way we go about it. We do not intend to buy a 38 ft sailboat and go across the pacific. We know we have alot to learn.
There's not much freemind can't fix -electric, mechanical,, plumbing etc. I never have to call in a service guy!. Ever.That should help .
I get "smaller boat. "good to learn on, cheaper, less Costly upkeep, but Think 3 teenage girls pms ing. Would u want a small boat?
As for sea.sickness Joe's done navy on a ship. It will probably be me puking. As I listen to the 3 girl teen drama. On a tiny boat..Lol

Howdy and Welcome Aboard CF!

I think most of the experienced cruisers here are just trying to help you and Freemind and don't want to see you get hurt, over your head, or discouraged from enjoying sailing.

I appreciate the way you wrote your post above, and your husband sounds like he is lucky to have you as a mate, though on the boat you can take the title of "Admiral" if he takes the role of "Captain."

You mentioned horses. I know a bit about horses and enjoy that world too. Since you have gone through a learning curve with horses, I will write something below I hope will make horse sense.

To make a parallel between buying a first horse and buying a first boat, I think some of the experienced sailors here would be like experienced horse owners saying some things like this (replace horse with sailboat):
_______________

Boats are Like Horses

1. Don't buy a horse until you know how to ride a horse. Take a few lessons to make sure you feel comfortable and safe.

2. Don't buy a high maintenance, high cost ($25,000), difficult to handle, large racing rescue Thoroughbred, until you have some experience with horses and you are sure you know the total costs of ownership. It is prudent to start with a smaller and more easily handled broke $500 quarter horse and learn with that horse before moving up to the more expensive and demanding (of skill) horse.

3. Horses can be expensive to maintain, keep in good health and condition, and to own. The expense is more than many people anticipate, and that can cause problems for both the horse and the owners and riders.

4. Horses are fun. Riding horses, while usually a relatively safe and fun thing to do, can be dangerous and deadly if one does not know what one is doing with them. Accidents happen. Some accidents are caused by very small things that escalate to disasters, with some causing the total loss of the horse. Good skills can be taught, learned and practiced with less expensive horses, for a smaller investment and financial risk.

5. It is a good idea to see a lot of horses before buying one. It is a good idea to take an experienced horseman with you when buying one.

6. Condition and health is more important than age, if what you want is a nice ride. Some older horses can be very comfortable, safe, and fun, IF they are in good condition. If they are in poor condition or health, they may be sold at a low price, but the real cost may not be apparent to an inexperienced rider/owner. That real cost may be several times the asking price.

7. Some horses have certain characteristics (strengths or limitations or needs) that make them different than other horses. Some of these may not be apparent to a novice.

___________________

Follow your dreams.

Here is a link to a thread I started with boats I find that may be of interest to you. I encourage you to read it, and notice some of the differences in similar boats. These are a sample of the many boats available, with some key features discussed. All are recently posted "for sale" so you can get an idea of what might be a nice type of boat for you to look for in the future.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ds-147098.html
____________________

While I have suggested that smaller boats may be very suitable and fun for you to have, I also understand you want to have room for 5 to sleep. That can be done on a boat a short as 30 feet long (see my posts in the thread I linked above).

I think a boat that is large enough for you FIVE people to enjoy sailing on would be the boat to buy, in the future when you are ready. Before that point when you are ready to purchase, you both can learn to sail on "Other People's Boats." Sailing on OPB can be free, and that will not take anything away from your boat budget.

[JPA Cate]

Crisco 41,

"Think 3 teenage girls pms ing..."

Maybe a 60 ft. catamaran? (just joking)

The point is, pms or not, y'all 're going to have to live together on a boat, and for your purposes, based on my experiences (30 ft mono, 36 ft. mono, and 46' mono, between 1978 and now), privacy is an illlusion, even at 46 ft. There is little to choose between a 27 and 36 that will give you enough private berths for a private berth for each child. With the larger boat, you'll hopefully gain storage space. Given that, I would start thinking about installing curtains to aid the illusion of privacy. Possibly make that quarterberth something either earned as a reward for exceptionally good behavior, or available by pulling straws for each weekend. It will be the most private.

On a boat the size you're talking about, if you try to find one with 2 heads, seems to me I remember an Erickson 27 that had 2 two heads, and two staterooms.

With five people living aboard, your boat will require a spacious sanitation system, especially if you plan to anchor out. Since you're planning fresh water lake sailing, you will be required to have such a system. They're great while they're working... You might be interested to read the Composting Head for Long Term Cruising thread; also, you might be interested in Peg Hall's book, "Boat Odors and How to Avoid them", about maintaining holding tank systems. [I probably didn't get the title word perfect, but Googling on her name and that idea will probably get you there.]

Ann