Freedom 39' PH Schooner

[Jefmech]

Looking at a couple mid 80's Freedom 39ft pilot house schooners anyone know anything about them?

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[barnakiel]

Nope. But I like what I see:

FREEDOM 39 PILOT HOUSE sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

b.

[SaltyMonkey]

I always get these FREEDOM's CC mixed up. I've considered a purchase in the past because they are supposed to be very easy to sail and reef. I also liked the layout. But, my understanding though is they have core hulls. They are not on the Mahina list, i think, because of similar maintenance flags. Over time, the Mahina list has proven to ME at least to hold up well.

Here's a like post. search for others
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...hts-26776.html

[SaltyMonkey]

Freedom 33 - Is it really an ocean crosser? - Boat Design Forums

[Jefmech]

I'm specifically looking at the 39 PH schooner though

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[UNCIVILIZED]

Not trying to be doom & gloom, I'm simply hitting the things to watch for, as I only have a moment to put together an abridged post.

Be wary of balsa cores, & do some reading on them, & other things, at boatpoker's website. He's a surveyor, & there's some excellent info on his web page. And I'd also seriously consider having a thermal survey/scan done of the boat, as it "sees" inside of the skins, so as to determine what's going on in there far better than a moisture meter could.
There are some good posts on the topic here on CF.

Also, TPI's lead engineer, Eriic Sponberg, has a website with some key info on Freedoms on it. Plus he's a member here on CF. Read & heed his posts on the boats. Especially on the spars.

There are some other, fairly knowledgable Freedom owners on here who you might chat up. And it's more than worth your time to visit the Freedom Owners forums online.

Don't casually drill or mount things in carbon masts as is done in aluminum or wood. And inspect any such fittings on candidate boats with a very sharp eye. As carbon's a lot more sensitive to nicks, dings, & cracks.

I'm not sure what the PH windows are made of, but if they're plastic of any sort, & more than a decade old...

And then there are the usual suspects to inspect onboard.

But those aside, they seem to be sharp boats. And quite easy to sail short handed. Though I'd be paranoid about lightning if I owned one anywhere where there were storms. As replacing one of those spars might be "interesting" given that TPI isn't around anymore.

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by Jefmech

I'm specifically looking at the 39 PH schooner though

Sent from my XT1585 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

That wasn't the point. Get out of your own head and read up on FREEDOM

[Cheechako]

The 39 have been a bargain for many years. I'm not sure why, but do some investigating. The 33 held great value for a long time so one wonders whassup with the 39? Maybe nothing.
I believe all Freedoms are cored hulls so be careful about that.


Based on the designers, time period, , and the little bit of shape available to look at, it's detraction may be that it's an IOR hull design with the pinched up stern sections?

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

That wasn't the point. Get out of your own head and read up on FREEDOM

Maybe you should have made a point instead of just posting a link then? Instead of grousing at the OP for your lack of clarity.

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Maybe you should have made a point instead of just posting a link then? Instead of grousing at the OP for your lack of clarity.

If he cannot parse on his own a given source without my adding a bias opinion, do you want to have patience spoon-feeding and doing his own slog of work?

This is not a playpen.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

I always get these FREEDOM's CC mixed up. I've considered a purchase in the past because they are supposed to be very easy to sail and reef. I also liked the layout. But, my understanding though is they have core hulls. They are not on the Mahina list, i think, because of similar maintenance flags. Over time, the Mahina list has proven to ME at least to hold up well.

Here's a like post. search for others
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...hts-26776.html

Very many boats have core hulls. HR and Najads to name just two.

Briefly, anything specific for Freedom that makes their cored hulls different than the rest?

b.

[Don C L]

I remember when they came out, I always thought they looked like a great design, but never sailed one. I am not sure if this applies to the 39, something in my memory says check the boxes, the structural connection of the mast to hull. And yes, cored hull, but as barnakiel says, that's not necessarily a deal breaker is it? Maybe it doesn't make the Mahina list because it may seem lightly ballasted? That is just a guess.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Very many boats have core hulls. HR and Najads to name just two.

Briefly, anything specific for Freedom that makes their cored hulls different than the rest?

b.

Maybe age.

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Very many boats have core hulls. HR and Najads to name just two.

Briefly, anything specific for Freedom that makes their cored hulls different than the rest?

b.

No idea. My memory was bad. You can google as much as me. The Carbon masts can be an expensive problem.

I like the freedoms CC. Liked the shallow draft. One of the 36's non CC was nice interior

[Steadman Uhlich]

That is one of my favorite models from Freedom. I like the layout. But then I have a strong liking for pilothouse boats and deck saloons are almost that.

If I bought the boat for coastal cruising I would like it as is.
If I wanted to take it on a circ to remote places and high latitudes, I would cover those large deadlights or "picture windows."

UNCIVILIZED gave some great advice (as usual) and Salty Monkeys reference to the Freedom forum is very appropriate too.

I have read a lot about the masts, over the years. I would not be worried about them. Like anything, condition is boat specific.

As Uncivilized pointed out, Eric Sponberg has written a very nice PDF document that gives his advice about the masts. Go here to read that PDF you can download for free:
Freedom Yacht Mast Repair PDF

FreedomYachts.org • View topic - FREEDOM YACHT MAST REPAIR
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Some short statements (my view):
Yes, the masts can break. Yes, they can be relatively expensive to replace in Carbon. Yes there are some maintenance issues (as with any mast or rig) and yes one can replace the masts with new carbon sticks or even with aluminum. I recently saw a pair of used Carbon Fiber Freedom 36 masts advertised for $12,000 with booms etc. I once thought of buying a Freedom that needed a new mast, and so I did some reading on the mast issues. You can find plenty to read online.
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What about the issue of cored hulls?
BARNAKIEL brings up a good point. Cored hulls were not solely produced by Freedom.

Here is an excerpt from another respected (but also opinioned) professional surveyor on the subject of cored hulls.

DAVID PASCOE marine surveyor Wrote:
Cored Hull Bottoms

"People usually think that a balsa cored bottom would be far worse because of the wood's ability to absorb water. So far, the evidence at hand does not support that idea. Foam, because it is much softer, and not at all fibrous, breaks down much faster under hydraulic pressure.

Unfortunately, core problems are often undetectable during surveys unless the problems are far advanced. That is particularly true when the outer skins are particularly thick and neither sounding nor moisture meters are likely to give an indication of trouble.

And in the case of (MANY BOATS) extremely little of the internal hull is visually accessible, so not much of the internal hull can even be inspected.

Thus, when buying a used boat with a cored hull, even a survey is not going to prove a reasonable probability of a defect-free hull. Surveyors ought to be shivering in their shoes anytime they approach a cored bottom, so how much more trepidation should a buyer bring to the table?

So there you have it. The history of cored bottom performance is poor. Surveys that don't involve destructive testing can (sic) prove soundness. Buying a cored bottom boat, in my opinion, is little more than a roll of the dice. The odds are not in your favor.

How About Cored Hull Sides?

No problem. Hull sides are not submerged and are far less likely to become water saturated. The potential for hydraulic erosion is far lessened even if it does. And because the sides are vertical, water will collect at the bottom near the chine. Water saturation in sides is fairly easy to detect: All you have to do is drill a small pilot hole on the inside and see if water runs out."