Formosa vs. CT vs. Mariner

[Islandmike]

I am certainly not an expert in this area, in fact I would probably have difficulty in having an intelligent converstion on it. Although I have done some research on my own Far East Mariner 40. And in my research it appears to me that many of the boat designs built in the Far East during the 60s and early 70s were mixed, swapped and comingled. I am not sure if we will ever have the straight scoop on many of the boats in that area during the times mentioned. Yards were blended, designs borrowed and molds moved around, I think that this accounts for the many similar designs coming from that area of the world... And this certainly does not validate any infringements that may have occured in the various designs. This is just my own limited opinion on this subject.

[AnchorageGuy]

There are those that post on this and other boards that must impress us with their knowledge and intelligence with each post. Their smugness in there responses are obvious to all but the few that take their every word as gospel. Even if that information is simply opinion, and everyone is certainly entitled to there opinion. And we all know what opinions are like. With a bit of research and a response from Bill Krandis who is the most knowledgeable individual on the Mariner I am posting a copy of his response to the questions and comments made here.



"I don't think that there is any mention on the website that Garden was the designer of the TM36. What happened is that Clair, during liquidation of FEY, sold maybe just one of the M36 molds and they ended up in Taiwan.

As far as Garden having been the designer of the M35......lets put the dots together. Hardin used to work for Garden. Hardin was one of the first Americans to look into the Far East for boatbuilding. Hardin and Clair were good friends..........:-)

I spoke to Bill Garden (he claimed that ONLY the M35 was his design), I spoke to Clair, got an email from Clair's chief carpenter, and got alot of information concerning this issue. It's all under the Far East Yachts pages on the website. I arranged it that so anyone can see, step by step what really happened.

What do I think ??? Bill Hardin was the person responsible for the infusion of Garden influenced designs to the Far East. Do you blame Clair for seeing such a beautiful design as the M35 and expanding it into a full line of cruisers with the help of such competent crew as the Japanese were ??? I wish I had the chance to do that :-)

The fact that later, Garden's influence reached Taiwan's shores and building quality suffered greatly, is indeed a travesty.

I say, kudos to Bill Garden for being one of the best naval designers, kudos to Bill Hardin for being a great businessman and kudos to Clair for believing in a design and building great boats in the proccess.

Now, the Taiwanese boatbuilders.......................:-)


Best,
Bill Kranidis"

[btrayfors]

"I don't think that there is any mention on the website that Garden was the designer of the TM36...."

Tayana Mariner 36 - Brochure

(Look at the first line of the brochure)

[AnchorageGuy]

Thanks once again for bringing yet another error to our attention. I am sure Bill will post a correction. The point though is pointless. The thread once again has moved to the far right of the original inquiry which was, "Just curious on the relative merits of these three designs, which appear - at least on the surface - to be very similar." Not sure if the actual designer is relevant to that inquiry since the merits of the design as opposed to the actions of builders and or designers 30 years ago, at least in my opinion, have little to do with whether or not those boats today are acceptable cruisers, live-aboards or whatever the original poster had in mind. too often a slight remark in a single post winds up hijacking the rest of the entire post to the point that the original question is never answered and quite often that becomes obvious when the original poster simply stops coming back for comment. But then that is just my opinion.

[Islandmike]

Bottom line, I purchased my mariner because of her beautiful lines, robust construction and of course the cost, she had been neglected for some time. We are very close to having her back to tip top shape and am very happy with Tivoli regardless of who designed and built her. I have met Bill Kranidis and learned a great deal about Mariners from his research, he is a great guy. As I have already stated in the Mariner web site, thanks for all you have done Bill...
I dont really know what relevance any of this post had, just felt compelled to put it down.

[SkiprJohn]

Aloha All,
If I in any way was responsible for hijacking the thread, I apologize. Since I stated that Bill Garden was the designer of my boat and was of the opinion he might have designed all those along those lines it could have been my message that got us sidetracked. Sorry.
At any rate they are good sea boats. Great looks and fun boats to sail. My Mariner did not point as well to weather as a sloop and would not tack easily into a chop unless it was making good speed. I believe those to be pretty standard characteristics of ketches. From close reached to running she was as fast as anything with her comparable waterline which was 27' for 35 LOD. The mizzen staysail was a joy to hoist and use.
The interior joiner work was just fantastic and the mahogany was beautiful. The exterior woodwork was well done and fun to varnish (LOL). My boat had sitka spruce masts which lasted a long time if varnished religiously.
A toast to Bill Garden and all those who were influenced by his designs.
Kind Regards,
JohnL

[AnchorageGuy]

John, we too had the same issues of the boat not doing well close to the wind. Ours is a 40 and when we replaced the main and mizzen we had full batten sails made and the performance close hauled improved considerably. We have cruised her extensively for 15 years and she has proven herself over and over in some pretty adverse conditions. So far to date 14 named storms and a few offshore gales and our only damage has been a wayward shingle from a roof hitting the masthead wind instruments. I have never tryed the mizzen staysail but should give a chance. BTW John, no need for you to apologize. My problem is when a statement or comment is made and someone takes off with that small detail to the point that the thread is no longer helpful to the original poster.

[SkiprJohn]

Hi Chuck,
Full battens sound like quite an improvement. If you look at my profile you'll see my boat well ahead of a schooner and pointing better. It was a race to Waikiki. The boat that was ahead (the photo was taken from) was a Cheoy Lee Offshore 41 Yawl which did a better job of pointing.
Regards,
JohnL

[AnchorageGuy]

If anyone really cares here is Bill Krandis response regarding the TM 36 and Garden design;


Hi, Chuck.

Please tell that guy to learn something about advertising and PR. By the time the TM36 was built, Bill garden had no rights to the name and design than my next door neighbor did. If they could call it a Garden design and suffer no consequenses why not do it ??? Blame Capitalism for it. !!! Jesus H. Christ !!!. Looking for importance is more like it. Tell the guy to give me a shout :-)

Best,
Bill Kranidis

[Jack Tar]

Thirty years on and it's all speculstion. What boat is better or what defects it might have is a moot point now. Any vessel 30 years on should have or will need a refit. Some will have major rot and some wont. My wife and I live aboard and sail a Formosa 51 called Angelique. She has had a major refit in the past 5 years. She still has some areas of rot (inactive and treated) that need to be repaired. Mostly deck beams and suports. The deck and coach roof have been replaced. Yep I have projects to do. She has been re-rigged, new masts, re-engined, re-tanked, re-wired, re-plumbed and has a new suite of instruments, auto pilot and radar. Your going to get what you pay for. 60K for a fixer or 230K for a sail away that needs nothing.
I have found there is no specifik problem areas on these boats. They all have problems but each is unique. One might have rot inthe bulkheads another it might be the deck, some the pilot house will need replacing. The problems any boat may have are caused by the construction technique and materials used at the time they were built. A 1978 will have issues that a 1983 might not have. You have to go in with your eyes wid open not fogged by exterior beauty or design. A good survey including rig, sails and engine should be done. Boats history helps if you can find it.
So to say Formosa's have deck rot - Well errrr yea she has a wooden suport structure or an underlay of plywood. But it's not model specific. I saw a ton of rot on other models of boats too. Everything was related to where they were built (Technique and materials) and the years they were made.

[SkiprJohn]

Hi Chuck,
That's an interesting response from Bill K. So it really is not who designed the boat but who put in the right paperwork after other papers expired that counts?
Well, not in my point of view. Sorry, I can't agree with that philosophy. Putting your name on the work of others is just something that doesn't set well with me regardless of how legal.
Again, it isn't worth worrying about now. All those boats were a good design no matter who got the credit for them.
Kind Regards,
JohnL

[AnchorageGuy]

Jack Tar, We have refit our Mariner 40 off and on for the 15 years we have lived aboard. I can honestly say we have no rot to be found anywhere and can guarantee NO deck leaks. The most recent and thorough survey bares this out. But we have taken steps all along in the refit to assure this and to bring us to this point. But as you state not all boats are in this condition, regardless of the builder or make of vessel. A good maintenance log that can be verified and a thorough survey by a knowledgeable surveyor will determine the condition and seaworthiness of any vessel no matter what the age.

[islandplanet]

Originally Posted by btrayfors

Cheoy Lee, after building a number of beautiful RR 41's, came out with their own "Offshore 40" design, selling at 2/3 of the price of a RR41. It was the identical boat, with a mirror-image tri-cabin design, iron rather than lead ballast, and minor other changes. They neglected to pay Phil Rhodes for ripping off his design (I visited with him in New York shortly before his death....he was furious about this).

Sadly that's when Phil decided not to design for any of those yards. One my favorite boats of all time is the Rhodes 41 built by Pearson or Aeromarine in Sausalito. The American hulls don't have all the ornate teak and interior finish work but they are excellent boats and you'll rarely if ever find an instance where a chopper gun was used to attach a bulkhead to the side of a hull. Yep that actually happened. I saw some of the remains myself. That was on a Cheoy Lee.

[islandplanet]

Originally Posted by SkiprJohn

Hi Chuck,
Full battens sound like quite an improvement.

Anytime you put new sails on a boat it's a huge improvement because many sailors keep sails for longer than they should. New sails make the boat sail with less heel, point higher, and go faster. I'm always amazed at boats that have raggedy sails but many thousands of dollars in electronic doo-dads. Sails are your engine.

Full battens have their advantages. But you need to consider the weight, friction, and additional wear points. On many boats we recommend Strong Track or another suitable track system for use with a full batten main. Between the added weight and the compression load on the batten end fittings more effort is required than on a standard leech batten sail. I used to hoist a 550 square foot 10 oz cloth full batten main without a track system. Not fun.

[Jack Tar]

Chuck my point exactly. Boats in our age group are only as good as the people looking after them. Some care and some dont. By the time I have had Angelique as long as you have had your boat she should be in as good a condition as yours is. BTW I have looked at your boat. Good on Ya she is a beautiful vessel.