First Purchase..Help Making A Wise Decision

[seancrowne]

thanks again everyone,
so much informatin.

well i did print and frame brads advice, and also somoe ideas.
ie esp not buying to circumnavigate if im planning on livingaboard first.
but i thought out some things and listed soe importand factors in no partcular order.
1. keel stepped mast
2. between 35-40 feet
3. shallow draft
4. Propane locker/ propane range/stove
5. aft cockpit
6. not bluewater but island capable. both would be nice.
7. plenty of storage( or two cabins as its sonly two of us and we will use other for storage as well)
8. popular deisel engine for ease pf parts and mant.
9. not older than 1974 or in a huge fixer up shape ( older will work if conditin fits)

ill be living aboard in new york and sailing the coast down to the islands during the summer. i don't have plans to but would like t eventually cross panama canal stay in califrnia for awhile and make an eventual trip to hawaii island hop there, but that may well be n a difrnt boat.

but with my criteria set, i have found a nice 1987 irwin citatin 35. lve the lines and have read a bit about it. looking for somoe owners to get info from. im ging to post a bullitin up today about it maybe one in sailnet. my only concern aboutmy criteria is shoal draft....

does anyone know of problems that could possibly arise from shoal draft, where i live it is essential to have, but i worry about it rightiing or recovery from a roll or heel past 180

things do happen i dont plan on putting my self in these predicamnts but better safe than sorry.

doing a search now on shoal draft keels and safty.

[GordMay]

You might check out the Irwin Yachts website at:
Irwin Yachts

[imagine2frolic]

When you leave Panama you might go to Hawaii first. It is all downwind including the trip to California. Going up the coast has broken more than one dream, and boat. The alternative is to get off the coast several hundred miles, and then go north. I believe that is an old traders route?

[Maren]

Originally Posted by seancrowne

does anyone know of problems that could possibly arise from shoal draft, where i live it is essential to have, but i worry about it rightiing or recovery from a roll or heel past 180

Shoal draft is good for shallow waters (I know, “Thanks Captain Obvio!” ). Sometimes you’ll find a shoal draft boat to be a bit tender at sea. If, however, you’ll be in protected and semi protected waters, this shouldn’t be a problem.

With respect to materials, you are looking mostly at fiberglass. Remember boats of this time frame (sixties to eighties) were built a bit before anyone knew how long fiberglass would last. Also, computers were a lot less common and less powerful. So, what do you do when you are a boat maker working with a substance of unknown durability?

Add more!

The result is some heavy boats which is not as much of a disadvantage as you might imagine with the exception of light air preformance and perhaps a bit of speed. One thing to learn a lot about is fiberglass problems (blistering, crazing & delamination)

I recommend you read the Buying a Boat or Yacht, Hull Blisters, Cores and Structural Issues … come to think of it, all the linked articles except the reviews of the boats except maybe for the Morgan 462 since it is a similar boat.
This gent is a boat surveyor and he knows what he is doing…. plus he writes fairly well.

About the rolling: there are a lot of factors at work on the mechanics, and each boat is different, so it’s tough for anyone to give you a concrete answer. However, you mitigate your risk by:

• Sailing in protected and semi-protected waters
• Having the required safety gear on board
• Knowing how to use the gear
• Having weather updates (US coasts have good cell phone coverage to several miles out)
• Filing a sail plan with family or friends
• Reefing early in heavy weather

In my opinion, a large percentage of sailing is preparing for (and doing what it takes to avoid) rare or uncommon catastrophic events. Unless you are racing, who really cares if you can do a Mexican or really even tack perfectly? As long as you aren’t running in a boat or dock (uncommon event) and are physically fine, you’re good. Add to in maintain your boat, alert & competent on watch (avoiding the bad) and you are pretty much good to hook.

Well, it’s long ... but at least it rambles.

[SkiprJohn]

Aloha Sean,

Just checking! Why the priority for a keel stepped mast? To my point of view (and I've owned both) you have about as many drawbacks for either. If there is ever a point where you might want to take your boat inland (under a low bridge) and have to unstep your mast you'll certainly become aware of the advantages of deck stepped. If you just intend offshore work then keel stepped is ok but then you have shoal draft which is not so offshore friendly. Pardon my ignorance on that one. Here on the West Coast everything is pretty deep so have never seen the advantage of shoal draft. I think for intra coastal and some of the islands though it might be a great advantage.
Lots of things to consider.

JohnL

[johneri1]

One other advantage of a deck-steped mast is that water does not enter the bilge from running down the inside of the mast.

[Southern Star]

Keel stepped masts have a few significant advantages for an offshore boat: firstly, the mast is better supported as it is relatively fixed at both the keel and the deck ; secondly, in the event of a dismasting, it is generally much easier to arrange a jury-rig as some of the original mast will likely be left protruding; thirdly, it places much less strain on the deck and therefore creates less structural concerns in older boats that may have some water migration into the core.

Having said all of that, I would nevertheless not be frightened away from a deck stepped mast if: the mast step is very solidly constructed; the deck beneath the mast step is solid FRP; there is absolutely no sign of deck delamination/water migration; and, if there is a solid athwartship bulkhead under the mast step or, preferably, a solid compression post down to the keel.

As to the vintage of the boat, I would be less concerned with that than with the current state of repair of a given vessel. Older boats can be a much better buy if they have been subject to good maintenance/upgrades over the years. Many crusing boats from the 60's and 70's will have recent diesels, standing rigging, running rigging, lifelines, epoxied bottoms, re-done decks etc., etc. And the 'overbuilt' hulls/decks not only provide better protection against structural damage from collision/groundings, the lack of core materials in the hulls make for easier repairs and installation of new thru-hulls should such become necessary.

Propane has, IMO, distinct advantages but would also not be a deal-breaker if all else was in order. You can upgrade to propane quite easily and will have the advantage of knowing that your hoses/connections/chafe protection are all new and state of the art. Even the instalation of a dedicated propane locker can be achieved quite readily if you start with a relatively large cockpit (or are able to install a swim platform).

Many (most) of the early full keel yachts were relatively shoal draft and were incredibly stable and had virtually no period of inverse stability. The same cannot necessarily be said of shoal draft achieved with fin keels/keel centerboards. And I would be leery of wing keels since they are virtually impossible to get unstuck should you run aground (as you try to heel the boat the wings bury even more).

Anyway, good luck Sean. Sounds like you are getting your priorites in decent order.

Brad

[seancrowne]

Originally Posted by SkiprJohn

Aloha Sean,

Just checking! Why the priority for a keel stepped mast? To my point of view (and I've owned both) you have about as many drawbacks for either. If there is ever a point where you might want to take your boat inland (under a low bridge) and have to unstep your mast you'll certainly become aware of the advantages of deck stepped. If you just intend offshore work then keel stepped is ok but then you have shoal draft which is not so offshore friendly. Pardon my ignorance on that one. Here on the West Coast everything is pretty deep so have never seen the advantage of shoal draft. I think for intra coastal and some of the islands though it might be a great advantage.
Lots of things to consider.

JohnL

you know john, when you put it like that...in every publication and alot of the boats i've crewed keel steeped seems to be the endall be all and i got used to em and have been preached to time and time again about the saftey although the bilge thing has come up and the bolts. but i have never had to unsteep it , the shoal draft came to be due to the living area in new york new jersey. i plan to keep the boat in new york r CT. and times in barnegt bay in new jersey where i have family. all shoal draft nescry. like i mentioned here and to well everyone i know boats boats boats my wife says, im trying to think for now and save the laters for well my later boats, and when i need a full deep keel. to travel, but i will rember the deck stepped when i'm out agaian this weekend looking.

i know its long , im also a rambler
sean

Originally Posted by Southern Star

Anyway, good luck Sean. Sounds like you are getting your priorites in decent order.

Brad

thanks brad, taken a few years to get the priorities in order,known exactly what i've wanted to d, funny how when you get near purchasing time, you have a hard time rembering what that is, other than sail. full fin wing starting to all look the same. i am still going with the keel steeped but i definitly have to think about the keel shape more. i wont let let age or mast put me off when looking,and the full keel would be really nice i got the chance to walk on an old alberg the other day but the wife wasnt happy with the interior room and storage. but i liked most everything.

[Southern Star]

Sean, shoal-draft is also a huge advantage in the Florida Keys, the Bahamas and many areas in the Caribbean (just to list a few of your earliest likely destinations). I would certainly be leery of anything much over five feet in the size range you are talking about and with the original destinations you have in mind.

Brad

[apper]

Originally Posted by seancrowne

well I’ve been doing my reading, looking at boats all over the coast, boat shows, and back yard projects that well make you feel, well, sorry for the builder, but I do understand the urge as I was on the verge of just building a farrier designed multi hull before I let practicality(my wife) hit me...now to make some choices. I was looking for help or information on any of the following designs, which ones are the best. Which would be best suited for live aboard, island hoping, possibly an ocean crossing to Hawaii at one point. the criteria is safety first, monohull, smaller than 35 feet, good for extended stays of 2 months or more, room for at least 2 people, and overall good functionality. low draft would be nice. I have a thing for racers, but cant help that as I’ve mentioned in other posts. I am looking to buy before the summer and move the boat down to St. Petersburg Florida as a vacation home and an eventual live aboard once the New York city life wears me out ( will be sooner than later)


1. a-1982 santana 30/30-b-1979 santana 35'
a-1982 Santana 3030 Boat For Sale

b-1979 Santana Boat For Sale=

2.1985 elan sloop (yes needs repairs but it is a dream boat)1985 Elan Sloop Boat For Sale

3. 1983 30 cal 9.2 1983 CAL 9.2 Boat For Sale

4. 32' Beneteau first 30E (this one being my fav. obv.)
1982 Beneteau first 30E Boat For Sale

5. 1983 j30 jboats( dont know what to think kind of like)
1983 J Boats J30 Boat For Sale

1983 J Boats J-30 Boat For Sale


thanks for getting this far if you have any information would be great before i book a surveyor to come see any of these boats with me.

I have been researching seaworthy boats in the smaller class for some time and have looked at Survivability factor which should be less than 2 and comfort factor (how comfortable the boat motion will be) which should be above 25- higher is better. Following is a list of lower price sailboats which have survivability factors less than 2 and comfort factors more than 25. I will go from best survivability to worst. These are only a few of many choices which will be better but probably much more expensive.

The Westsail 32 and other classic cruising boats are better but will be more expensive.

Alberg 30' 1.68 31.73 9000
28' Cape Dorey 1.71 31.45 9000
Pearson Triton 28 1.73 27.16 6930
Douglas 32 1.74 31.04 10350
Pearson 323 1.75 30.58 12800
Cal 35' 1.78 30.78 15000
Hughes 31 1.85 25.89 9100
Northern 29 1.86 25.27 7250
Columbia 8.3 1.91 25.15 7300

Besides these factors you have to look at original quality of build, condition of the hull, deck, rigging, and diesel; amount of storage including water and fuel. % of displacement that you will add for stores and equipment for extended cruising. After that worry about layout and amenities. There are other boats that are below 2 on the survivability scale and just barely below 25 on the comfort scale. My choice by the way will be either the Pearson 323 (<$15000 Can.) which is in good shape and the Northern 29' which I still have to check out (<$11000 Can.).

Not sure this helps but there are some surprises when looking at the numbers but longer and heavier with moderate beam is probably better mainly for storage volume and general comfort.

[apper]

Originally Posted by Southern Star

Sean, if you really interested in an eventual offshore passage in this boat, then in your price range I would definitely recommend an older, less spacious but more seaworthy full keel boat. There are a number that should be available for around your $20,000.00 figure (although the asking prices will often be higher). Some to consider would be, in no particular order:

Allied Luders 33
Cape Dory 30
Cape Dory 28
Douglas 32
Bayfield 32
Alberg 35
Alberg 30

All of these are full keel and with a reputation for solid construction. The Alberg 30 and Cape Dory 28 will be quite cramped in terms of interior space (albeit the former should be avaiable for less than your price limit and is a proven circumnavigator).

Any Bayfield 32's available at around that price are likely to be mid 70's vintage, although at least all were equipped with diesels and a cutter rig. While hardly a circumnavigator, they do have more interior space than most of the others listed here plus good balance, a sea-kindly motion, shoal draft, fairly deep bilges and a good anchoring arrangement.

The Alberg 35 is certainly capable of offshore passages, although the interior was rather spartan and featured vinyl 'fake' wood on the bulkheads.

The Allieds are also capable of extended offshore passages and were not only well constructed, but quite well finished below (although as with the Bayfield and Douglas 32, it may be hard to find a decent example under about $25,000.00).

The Douglas 32 was not only well constructed, seaworthy and beautiful, it also performed very well indeed ( a terrific, if rare Ted Brewer design).

An earlier post mentioned the Northern 29 - this was a well constructed fin keel with a skeg rudder designed by Sparkman and Stephens that also has great balance and offshore capability. It will be, however, a little tight on storage for an extended passage.

The first thing that you are apt to note with virtually all of these designs is that, due to the relatively narrow beam (and the preference for cockpit storage rather than aft cabins), they have much less living space than the Catalina or Beneteau, for example. These designs will not only have much more storage, important for the reasons already discussed - they will also be more stable, safe, have a more sea-kindly motion and much better balance. And here is the dilemma - should you really buy now for a future offshore passage?

There was a recent article entitled 'The Ten Commandments of Buying a Boat' (which I believe is available on this site) - and the author stressed the importance of buying for your present needs, rather than for what you believe you may need in the future. I wholeheartedly agree with this assertion.

The Catalina and the Beneteau will have much more livable interiors dockside than any of the boats I have listed above. They will also allow you to safely do coastal cruising and, with a bit of planning, even a trip to the Bahamas. Finally (and perhaps most importantly) they will also tend to be fairly easy to re-sell. This is because they are popular models, they are more recent designs and because for most people, it is the interior that sells. Put another way, they are far fewer people who buy boats for offshore sailing than for short-term inland, or coastal cruising with family and/or a couple of guests.

Right now it seems that you are interested in a sailing 'cottage' in which to get some experience. You could do much worse at the price that you are considering than either the Beneteau or the Catalina 30.

Brad

Forget the Catalina or Beneteau take the Douglas 32, Alberg 30 or Cape Dory 30, both are great boats with good comfort numbers >30 and survivability numbers from 1.7 to 1.74, way less than 2. A Pearson 323 is also good and has lots of storage except fuel. I don't have any info on the Luders 33. Just my 0.02 worth.

[malbert73]

Just sold my Luders 33. For its vintage and length, fastest boat I have sailed. Super strong and well built. Very seakindly. Many have crossed oceans, though I didn't. Also remember that different boats are built differently. It's not just about the hull shape and keel. It's also about the bulkheads and whether they are solidly glassed/tabbed in, and the hull deck joint, and chainplate attachments, and rudder strength. Also consider keelbolts. for what it's worth, Luders has very rugged build- bolted then glassed over hulldeck joint makes it bulletproof. some smaller production yachts did sealant and self tapping screws. All of my bulkheads, seats, and shelves are also glassed to hull as structural members. Rudder is well supported top and bottom with solid bronze 1.5 inch post. Never lose that. Encapsulated lead keel, so no worres about keelbolts.

You can fix the hull deck joint, add stringers to inside of hull, beef up rudder on a Cat 30 for example- but why not get a boat that already is built tougher, and then spend your time and money on things that can help further- electronics, safety gear, storm sails

Many production boats also are built ruggedly- not just about production vs custom. My "to be" new boat, a 1987 Tartan 40, also has great build quality, even though it is a more modern production boat.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by apper

I have been researching seaworthy boats in the smaller class for some time and have looked at Survivability factor which should be less than 2 and comfort factor (how comfortable the boat motion will be) which should be above 25- higher is better. Following is a list of lower price sailboats which have survivability factors less than 2 and comfort factors more than 25. I will go from best survivability to worst. These are only a few of many choices which will be better but probably much more expensive.

The Westsail 32 and other classic cruising boats are better but will be more expensive.

Alberg 30' 1.68 31.73 9000
28' Cape Dorey 1.71 31.45 9000
Pearson Triton 28 1.73 27.16 6930
Douglas 32 1.74 31.04 10350
Pearson 323 1.75 30.58 12800
Cal 35' 1.78 30.78 15000
Hughes 31 1.85 25.89 9100
Northern 29 1.86 25.27 7250
Columbia 8.3 1.91 25.15 7300

Besides these factors you have to look at original quality of build, condition of the hull, deck, rigging, and diesel; amount of storage including water and fuel. % of displacement that you will add for stores and equipment for extended cruising. After that worry about layout and amenities. There are other boats that are below 2 on the survivability scale and just barely below 25 on the comfort scale. My choice by the way will be either the Pearson 323 (<$15000 Can.) which is in good shape and the Northern 29' which I still have to check out (<$11000 Can.).

Not sure this helps but there are some surprises when looking at the numbers but longer and heavier with moderate beam is probably better mainly for storage volume and general comfort.

Hi Apper and welcome to the forum.

Not sure if you noticed but the last comments on this discussion were 2008 and profile notes show the OP hasn't logged on the forum since 2009. Of course never hurts to revive an interesting discussion.

I am curious how you calculate the survivability and comfort numbers you posted? Assume some formula based on displacement, ballast, hull form, etc?

[goat]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Hi Apper and welcome to the forum.

Not sure if you noticed but the last comments on this discussion were 2008 and profile notes show the OP hasn't logged on the forum since 2009. Of course never hurts to revive an interesting discussion.

I am curious how you calculate the survivability and comfort numbers you posted? Assume some formula based on displacement, ballast, hull form, etc?

Looks like he's using the capsize ratio and comfort ratio from Carl's calculator.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140328.../sailcalc.html

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by goat

Looks like he's using the capsize ratio and comfort ratio from Carl's calculator.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140328112219/http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html

I was guessing something along those lines. So who is this guy Carl? Never heard of him before. It did mention on the calculator that the comfort formula came from Ted Brewer but did not notice where the rest of the formulas and calculations were derived.

Like all of the similar formulas I have seen, my opinion it can give you some very rough guidelines on what you might expect from a boat and point out some extreme designs but that's as far as it goes.

For example, I didn't see anything in the formulas that took into account hull form or even something as basic as draft. So nothing to account for location of max beam, how far fore and aft the beam is carried and a whole host of other parameters.

I think most would agree that all of these could have a significant effect on comfort, susceptibility to capsizing, boat performance and more.

Not saying numbers and formulas cannot be helpful but I would not use that as the primary tool for selecting or eliminate a boat from my list.