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Old 20-11-2020, 07:06   #46
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Re: First boat for cruising the Med

Hi elCid: A mast falling is a really big mess, wich can be even dangerous for the security of the crew. So, for me is a rule: Rigging over 20 years is dead. Unless you are presented with a reliable bill of the last change, asume is the original. Its established that it last for 10 years. Well, may be this too strict... let´s be some flexible... may be 15... well... but if you reach the 20... you are on extra time...
Last month I was required by Insurance Company (Pantaenius) to submit a bill of last change or if it is over 10 years a certificate of the condition of the rigging to write a new policy. So, take this matter as a priority one.
A survey has no much to say about it. Only can give you an "opinion", but I dont think they will sign a reliable condition...
Be good...
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Old 20-11-2020, 07:30   #47
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Re: First boat for cruising the Med

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Last month I was required by Insurance Company (Pantaenius) to submit a bill of last change or if it is over 10 years a certificate of the condition of the rigging to write a new policy. So, take this matter as a priority one.
funnily Pantaenius is one of those that does not have a hard and fast rigging age policy , I know cause im insured with them
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Old 20-11-2020, 07:35   #48
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Re: First boat for cruising the Med

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I'm not sure I follow. For the boats which are listed with Tax not paid - doesn't it basically mean I would have to add a 20% VAT (more or less - depending on where the boat is registered) to the price?
at the end of the day , the offer price will have to take into account of the VAT , any seller that refuses to accept that a Vat less boat will have an offer substantially less then a VAT paid one is fooling themselves

Build a picture of the prices boats that interest you are fetching , work out the VAT and offer less the VAT

Equally during the sale , it may be possible for the seller to Pay the VAT as they can use the "book" value of the boat as opposed to the sale value

Again talk with a local broker , but dont be afraid of a VAT not paid boat

( note if you not EU tax established, Then it may be a serious advantage to buy a VAT not paid boat , you can avail of EU TIR ( temporary import relief ) to avoid ever paying the VAT
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Old 21-11-2020, 16:31   #49
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Re: First boat for cruising the Med

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funnily Pantaenius is one of those that does not have a hard and fast rigging age policy , I know cause im insured with them
Hi there: May be, you can find even more funny reading the conditions of the Pantaenius insurance: (I just copy it in spanish, to keep the literality)

Condiciones de Seguro Pantaenius (CSP)
Parte A. Condiciones de daños propios (todo riesgo).

Pérdida o daños a la jarcia fija, incluyendo posibles pérdidas o daños consecuentes, están excluidos de la cobertura hasta que la jarcia fija haya sido sustituida o inspeccionada y aprobada por un profesional o una empresa especializada en la instalación de jarcia fija.


And for the completion of your enjoymente you should take under consideration the little detail that Pantaenius is just a co-insurancer.

Aseguradoras participantes en el coaseguro:
(La aseguradora que aparece en primer lugar es la aseguradora principal/ abridora)
Allianz Global Corporate & Specialty SE (25,00%)
Helvetia Versicherungs-AG (7,50%)
Chubb European Group SE (20,00%)
AXA Versicherung Aktiengesellschaft Bereich Industriekunden Nord/ Industrie-Transport (2,50%)
Mannheimer Versicherung AG Niederlassung Hamburg (2,50%)
Kravag Logistic Vers. AG (17,50%)
AIG Europe S.A. (15,00%)
HDI Global Specialty SE (10,00%)


Which is easy to understand is that any company write in their condition something like "the user will communicate to the company any aditional risk...", so, do not expect an easy solution to an accident in your rigging, just because is not expecified in your conditions. And, believe me, that will be not funny at all...
Be all good overseas...!!!
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Old 21-11-2020, 23:02   #50
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Re: First boat for cruising the Med

Firstly Pantaenius insurance isn’t the same depending on what country and policy you buy

The word “ rigging “ never appears in my policy conditions ( the full version )

What is excluded is damage due to corrosion

I wasn’t saying that my insurance allows me to forget about rigging , merely that Pantaenius simply doesn’t have any sort of fixed rigging clause or condition

Being “ funny “ as I’m an , I actually READ my policy and also contacted Pantaenius

As to listing that they use a pool of insurers , clearly you don’t quite understand how almost all modern insurance works

Funny that
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Old 22-11-2020, 04:08   #51
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Re: First boat for cruising the Med

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Firstly Pantaenius insurance isn’t the same depending on what country and policy you buy
Secondly, That is how Pantaenius, and many others, works in EUROPE, not in any Country in particular.

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post

The word “ rigging “ never appears in my policy conditions ( the full version )

What is excluded is damage due to corrosion
They dont need write RIGGING to consider it.

Corrosion...? White and in a bottle is MILK, whereever you are...

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post

I wasn’t saying that my insurance allows me to forget about rigging , merely that Pantaenius simply doesn’t have any sort of fixed rigging clause or condition

Being “ funny “ as I’m an , I actually READ my policy and also contacted Pantaenius

Funny that
Again, they dont need, nor want, be so specific.

Contacted...? Great...!!! will you share with us what they answer to the key question...
"Will you cover, and pay, for a claim of (i.e.) 30.000€ in damages of a mast down (Mast, both rollers, sails, new rigging, electronics, damages in hull deck and side, etc etc and I hope without personal injurys) of my boat, 30 years old, with the original rigging...?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post

As to listing that they use a pool of insurers , clearly you don’t quite understand how almost all modern insurance works

Funny that
Listing that I only tell you that Pantaenius will never asume risk, and pay fot it, about what the other companys care. And Allianz, my insurancer, do care.

but, said all the previous, if you still want the coin... you got it...!!!
Don worry, be happy, and funny, and some of this days, you will really "UNDERSTAND how almost all modern insurance works..."

Enjoy it...!!!
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Old 22-11-2020, 04:43   #52
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First boat for cruising the Med

I’m not sure what you are arguing about having been insured with Allianz and now Pantaenius , Pantaenius cover is better with less restrictions

Note I never argued that you can’t ignore rigging , merely that Pantaenius do not have a specific age associated with rigging like some insurers do. That’s all I said

I’m insured via the U.K. with a EU insurance pool. Pantaenius policy is not identical across its offices. The word “ rigging “ does not appear in my full policy doc , my policy DOES NOT have the clause you mention. So clearly it’s different

Given the damage caused in Vaithi recently during the Medicane, Pantaenius paid out promptly and to most people’s satisfaction
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Old 22-11-2020, 05:41   #53
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Re: First boat for cruising the Med

Ohhh man... Medicane...? what does it has to see with an old rigging...?

Will you please give an answer about your talks with the company...? Easy, YES or NOT.

Contacted...? Great...!!! will you share with us what they answer to the key question...
"Will you cover, and pay, for a claim of (i.e.) 30.000€ in damages of a mast down (Mast, both rollers, sails, new rigging, electronics, damages in hull deck and side, etc etc and I hope without personal injurys) of my boat, 30 years old, with the original rigging...?"


I´m getting tired of this. I´m very glad of you being so happy wiht your old rigging, feeling being covered by a policy without mention about age of it but with mention about corrosion.

To Mr. ElCid, about your question, YES, the rigging is beside the electric system (because the fire risk) the main point to consider in an old boat. First, because the risk to personnel and material, and second, because in the event of an accident, you will find your, so far, friendly insurance company being not so friendly, no matter your policy clauses. They always find the way to do it. The rest, internet literature, which is free. You will consider it by yourself...
Best wishes to everyone.
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Old 22-11-2020, 11:40   #54
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Re: First boat for cruising the Med

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
funnily Pantaenius is one of those that does not have a hard and fast rigging age policy , I know cause im insured with them
Pantaenius has never asked us either, though we did send them a copy of the receipt for new rigging in 2011. However, I think each Pantaenius branch or perhaps country is playing to slightly different guidelines perhaps from their underwriters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RafaCorfu View Post
Will you please give an answer about your talks with the company...? Easy, YES or NOT.

Contacted...? Great...!!! will you share with us what they answer to the key question...
"Will you cover, and pay, for a claim of (i.e.) 30.000€ in damages of a mast down (Mast, both rollers, sails, new rigging, electronics, damages in hull deck and side, etc etc and I hope without personal injurys) of my boat, 30 years old, with the original rigging...?"
Yes, less the cost of the part that failed, that's why we insure with them at a slightly higher rate than some of their competitors. For us the yacht represents a substantial amount of money. I want the best insurance broker and cover available that pays out without a quibble.

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Old 22-11-2020, 11:47   #55
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Re: First boat for cruising the Med

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at the end of the day , the offer price will have to take into account of the VAT , any seller that refuses to accept that a Vat less boat will have an offer substantially less then a VAT paid one is fooling themselves
Indeed. If the boat is for sale by a charter company, then they will have paid and claimed back VAT on first purchase. They offset the ta on their VAT account. However, during the life of the charter boat they are required to pay VAT on any income earned from chartering. When they finally dispose of the yacht they have to account for it, either by selling it to a foreigner who immediately takes it aboard so it is exported, or the charter company pays VAT on the sale price if its to a EU resident.

We walked away from a nice Jeanneau Sunrise 34 when the broker said it had just come back from Antigua when quizzed about the fans in the saloon. I asked to see the paperwork but there wasn't a single receipt and only later did something that may have been a receipt for the new engine appear.

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Old 22-11-2020, 14:14   #56
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Re: First boat for cruising the Med

Pete - I am confused now. So for boats which are listed with Tax not paid, if they are sold by a charter company, THEY will be paying the VAT and not me the buyer? I mostly avoided those ads as I expected to add the VAT on top of the asking price.
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Old 22-11-2020, 14:31   #57
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Re: First boat for cruising the Med

Well someone is paying it if you are European.

The reason for the VAT unpaid price is to attract those who will be taking the boat somewhere else like Aus or the US and for them saving 20% on the purchase price would be very tempting.

To sell to a EU resident, then the charter company just invoices you with the cost of the boat plus the local VAT rate. Ka-ching 20% or so for the Government.
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Old 23-11-2020, 00:53   #58
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Re: First boat for cruising the Med

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Well someone is paying it if you are European.

The reason for the VAT unpaid price is to attract those who will be taking the boat somewhere else like Aus or the US and for them saving 20% on the purchase price would be very tempting.

To sell to a EU resident, then the charter company just invoices you with the cost of the boat plus the local VAT rate. Ka-ching 20% or so for the Government.
So it's part of the negotiation then. But generally it would be split between the two parties? Or is it assumed the buyer/seller will cover it? What's the starting point of the negotiation basically is what I am trying to understand. Or there's no such assumption - and it all hinges on the negotiation?

Also I found a boat I like (this one is with VAT paid, UK registered) and I sort of told the broker what price I would be interested in (about 12% below the asking price). Will this be relayed back to the owner or should I ask the broker to have a meeting - how do I take it from here?
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Old 23-11-2020, 02:47   #59
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Re: First boat for cruising the Med

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Yes, less the cost of the part that failed, that's why we insure with them at a slightly higher rate than some of their competitors. For us the yacht represents a substantial amount of money. I want the best insurance broker and cover available that pays out without a quibble.

Pete
That sounds good... if it were real...
Then, you mean, after the big mess, (lets say that 30K as an example) the insurance inspector check the parts and find the problem was... one of the laminated conectors between the wire and the tensor in the lower side stay (sorry my english is limited) has failed due to corrosion inside... normal after 30 years... and the Company say...ok we pay 30K in damages, except 300€ which cost this wire...

As I am sure you have this black over white, in paper, I would apreciate see it.
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Old 23-11-2020, 04:18   #60
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First boat for cruising the Med

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So it's part of the negotiation then. But generally it would be split between the two parties? Or is it assumed the buyer/seller will cover it? What's the starting point of the negotiation basically is what I am trying to understand. Or there's no such assumption - and it all hinges on the negotiation?

Also I found a boat I like (this one is with VAT paid, UK registered) and I sort of told the broker what price I would be interested in (about 12% below the asking price). Will this be relayed back to the owner or should I ask the broker to have a meeting - how do I take it from here?


In the EU the seller is vat registered then they pay the vat in normal circumstances since they are legally liable for it , on the case of a boat being taken out of the EU you may still have to pay the vat and reclaim it from the seller after proof of export is submitted This is what Eu vat law requires in the absence of a structured “ sail away scheme “ which exists in the U.K. but not in many other countries.

If the seller is not EU vat registered ie a private person established outside the EU. Then you effectively become the “ importer “ the second you buy the boat. In this case as the importer you are responsible for the vat

In all cases everything is negotiable

Normally , you make an offer ( on a completely no obligation basis ) to the broker , mind you sometimes it’s to the owner where it’s down to the nitty gritty. But typically the sellers broker is the point of contact. He then feeds that back to the seller
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