Financials of buying an older boat

[leftbrainstuff]

1984 Liberty 458 in excellent condition. Previous owner was an obsessive compulsive aircraft mechanic. I have a similar background.

The picture of the engine room sold me. Clean, neat and we'll laid out.

We've since done many updates and upgrades. My advice is start with a boat with good bones. Junkers are much more work and just as expensive if you want to resurrect them.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

I guess we are in A64Pilots corner. Older boat that looks like new, tons of money put into it but it's smart money because we love everything about it. Boats are not financial investments but they are investments in fun, adventure,new experiences and making new friends. These are very wise investments over the long run so it makes perfect sense for us. It's not for souls that need to account financially for every dollar spent because the payoff is not financial but there is a huge payoff and it's in bringing something new and exciting into your life. Now like many others when hit by a major expense that was unexpected you wont see me blowing stars about my experience but life moves on and soon your all smiles again. The boating life certainly is not for everyone because of the costs.

Not sure I agree with the buy older sentiment, but the rest of your post is right on. Going to your grave with a bunch of money in your investment account isn't way up there on my life's accomplishments list.

[ZULU40]

Since, suitable for a particular duty the costs of hardware are pretty much the same no matter the length. And knowing that in time everything on the boat will break down and need replacing. A least you can philosophise when you replace something you get to choose what it is.

So if you get a cheap boat where everything needs replacing, at least you will know everything about your boat and if you do it right you will know how to repair it.

Finally, if you dont like fixing things, take up golf or macramé instead.

[TheThunderbird]

the main point is, with the many boats around, to avoid spending $ for STRUCTURAL ISSUES.

fixing a rudder or ballast or current deck is really throwing out money.

Changing standing rigging every 15years is a right thing to do

Amenities are allowed and welcome, as far as sometimes we drink champagne instead of water.
I much decorate my boat. My $, my pleasure. Know well that it is worth 0, both afloat and ashore TO OTHERS, but it remains over-valuable TO ME

Money is about your cost, and value to Others.
The sentiment behind is the Value to the owner, and it is another thing.


IF using a boat doesn't raise your spirit, better make only rational decision (chartering, and/or golf)

[Sojourner]

I'm closing on a boat in a few days if all goes well, and to get here I had the same thought processes as you... newer 2006+ excharter production boat or a much older (1991) well built cruising boat. Once I realized everything major needs replacing/changing/upgrading/major overhauls on any boat every 10 or so years, it turns out that a 2006 model with everything nearing the end of it's life is gonna cost me a lot more than the 1991 rock solid boat owned by a cruising couple who updated and refitted it in the last few years. That the boat in question is an Amel made it easier to decide, but still, I think logically a soundly built older boat thoroughly refitted recently is going to cost less than a newer cheaply built and especially excharter one in a lot of cases. Anycase, I'll let you know in a year

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by jimp1234

So does it make more financial sense to purchase the newer boat because it will likely have more residual value after 10 years? Or is that the wrong way to think about a boat purchase? As "64pilot" suggested maybe just figuring on a $0 residual value is a better way to think about it. Just get the boat you want then a Viking funeral? <grin> TIA


-Jim

I agree that factoring in residual value when purchasing an older boat is generally a pointless exercise. That said, there are two main "categories" of boats and how they depreciate is a bit different. Older, higher end semi-custom cruising boats (the list is long but some examples would be Oyster, Halberg Rassey, Swan, Pacific Seacraft, Island Packet, Valiant, etc.) are going to continue to depreciate more slowly (if well maintained) than production boats of the same era, such as Beneteau, Catalina, Pearson, etc. That said, I still don't think the difference is enough to warrant being a factor in your purchase decision. The variables between boats are such that one moderate refit of a semi-custom boat could put it's lifetime cost of ownership way over that of a production boat.

If money is a factor, buy the smallest boat that fits your needs. Lower purchase cost, lower loss in absolute depreciation dollars. Smaller boats cost less to operate and maintain, in general; less material costs (sail, paint, rope, fuel), marina costs, and even hardware costs, in some cases.

If I were you, and my budget were $200k, I would consider the following scenario: buy a well-kept 40' 80's era boat for @ $100k and be prepared to put up to $50k into it. If you choose wisely to begin with that refit kitty could get you new sails and running rigging, new solar, new batts, and a whole host of other repairs and upgrades. Save the remaining $50k. You'll need it no matter what boat you buy.

[ZULU40]

Originally Posted by TheThunderbird

the main point is, with the many boats around, to avoid spending $ for STRUCTURAL ISSUES.

fixing a rudder or ballast or current deck is really throwing out money.

yes the bones must be good

Originally Posted by TheThunderbird

Changing standing rigging every 15years is a right thing to do

In au Ive had 2 riggers say you wont get insurance if your rig is substantially over 10 yrs old. Without insurance you will have trouble with some marinas, and boat lifts will refuse you.

... but still if you arent recoring a deck or reskinning the hull its an affordable proposition, and you can end up with a design you cant really buy any more.

Originally Posted by TheThunderbird

Amenities are allowed and welcome, as far as sometimes we drink champagne instead of water.
I much decorate my boat. My $, my pleasure. Know well that it is worth 0, both afloat and ashore TO OTHERS, but it remains over-valuable TO ME

Money is about your cost, and value to Others.
The sentiment behind is the Value to the owner, and it is another thing.


IF using a boat doesn't raise your spirit, better make only rational decision (chartering, and/or golf)

[TheThunderbird]

Europe has a 6+6 years rule for insurance.

Sure coastal cruisers and summertime vacationers may feel relaxed about it.

Annual blue water ones can not

[dcstrng]

Originally Posted by TheThunderbird

the main point is, with the many boats around, to avoid spending $ for STRUCTURAL ISSUES.

fixing a rudder or ballast or current deck is really throwing out money.

Changing standing rigging every 15years is a right thing to do...

Had to chuckle, not that it is wrong (probably is 110% correct) but I tend to see things just the opposite because ballasts, keels, hulls and rudders are things my ham-fist DIY mind finds interesting to repair and the very necessary standing rigging I find a chore because I have to hire someone else to hoist the mast and or maneuver those long, expensive aluminum thingies... Having "learned my lesson" on the bigger, better, flashier stuff (more like stumbled through, back in my yuppie days...), I now tend to stay compact, straightforward, easy on the pocket and simple -- but others have had the opposite experience -- our amusement is where we find it and an appropriate formula for one doesn't sync totally for another, nor should it -- I think where it must sync is the standard for the final product... if one expects to sail safely with family, friends or solo, there are still well-know standards of structure, maintenance and seamanship that must be met...

Absolutely agree " IF using a boat doesn't raise your spirit, better make only rational decision (chartering, and/or golf...) "

[a64pilot]

When I first purchased insurence for my Boat, age of rigging wasn’t asked.
They also didn’t care that I had never owned a sailboat before, but did want “big boat” experience, 36” and 45” Sportfishermen experience made them happy.

[Tia Bu]

You can do a lot of boating in older boats for a lot less money than you think, if you're willing to do the work yourself. And you don't necessarily have to lose money on owning a boat. (Although the possibility always lurks!)

Have owned three older boats over the past nine years. We still own the third. We made money on the first two (sold them for more than purchase price plus all the money we put into repairs/upgrades.) I'd rather not get into specifics.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

When I first purchased insurence for my Boat, age of rigging wasn’t asked.
They also didn’t care that I had never owned a sailboat before, but did want “big boat” experience, 36” and 45” Sportfishermen experience made them happy.

My insurer also didn’t ask about the age of the standing rigging before issuing the policy, but on the policy certificate it clearly states that there is no coverage for standing rigging older than 10 years. As we have receipts from the PO that the rig was last changed in 2010, we have a timetable for changing the rig, barring anything found in our annual inspections.

As others have written, on selling your generic production boat you will likely get between 1/2 x and 1 x of your (non inflation adjusted) purchase price. But you’re surely not going to get anything back on all the maintenance, repairs and upgrades that you’ll spend on during your ownership. That’s just the cost of owning a boat, which I guess we all figure is worth it for the lifestyle benefits we gain.

Unlike cars, boats of a certain age don’t become collectable classics. And unlike houses, boats don’t have land associated with them that has intrinsic value regardless of the condition of the house on top of it.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Not sure I agree with the buy older sentiment, but the rest of your post is right on. Going to your grave with a bunch of money in your investment account isn't way up there on my life's accomplishments list.

Paul,
It's what we did as in the past I've only ever carried 3rd party insurance and i can walk away from the boat if need be, dont want to but can afford to. If i bought a new boat probably would not be an option but thats a very personal decision and whether its new or old it still has a similar pattern, everything else being very similar. That said I love that Schumacher design your sailing, lovely to look at and lovely to sail, that guy was incapable of drawing a slow boat.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Paul,
It's what we did as in the past I've only ever carried 3rd party insurance and i can walk away from the boat if need be, dont want to but can afford to. If i bought a new boat probably would not be an option but thats a very personal decision and whether its new or old it still has a similar pattern, everything else being very similar. That said I love that Schumacher design your sailing, lovely to look at and lovely to sail, that guy was incapable of drawing a slow boat.

I might have miss interpreted the new vs old issue. I was reading it as a 30 year old boat vs a 10 year old boat. I've had both and understand every boat requires major maintenance and money to keep in top cruising condition. If you have the time to do the work yourself and the money and are not ready to actually cruise then getting an old boat can work out really well. With an old boat all systems are suspect and need renewing - either by the new buyer or the previous owners. Tanks, chainplates, engines, plumbing, electric are all up for grabs depending on the boats life history and original builder. You can avoid a lot of these issues on newer boats.
If it matters, my boat is a 2003. That means its pushing 15 years old. Replaced the standing rigging last year. All the original electronics are gone. Most everything else is still in good offshore capable condition.

[daletournier]

Hey Paul, I tend to agree with what you write often, and agree again here.

I went for a very lightly used 2002 for the reasons you state above.

People often forget there's so much more to a boat than a hull. This isn't just a financial oversight but also a seaworthy one, which is often forgotten when the old new argument comes up.

For me unless someone has dropped a truck load of money on an old boat and made it "newer" again I'm not interested.