Financials of buying an older boat

[s/v Moondancer]

Most boat owners including myself are delusional when discussing cost...Basic arithmetic on buying a boat and keeping for 10 years is:

Cost $X
Additional money spent over 10 years $X
Total Cost $2X

Recovery price $1/2X

Cost over 10 years $1.5X

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by s/v Moondancer

Most boat owners including myself are delusional when discussing cost...Basic arithmetic on buying a boat and keeping for 10 years is:

Cost $X
Additional money spent over 10 years $X
Total Cost $2X

Recovery price $1/2X

Cost over 10 years $1.5X

Well now we know how to negotiate a good deal on your boat

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by s/v Moondancer

Most boat owners including myself are delusional when discussing cost...Basic arithmetic on buying a boat and keeping for 10 years is:

Cost $X
Additional money spent over 10 years $X
Total Cost $2X

Recovery price $1/2X

Cost over 10 years $1.5X

Very similar to my boat.....

Cost of her when new $X

Bought by me when 8 years old for $X ( back in the days of high inflation...)

Money spent by me over next 20 years $1.5X

Value at end of first 20 years ownership .. $0

Cost of half life overhaul $X

Value now..... $.75X maybe lower...

[Mazu]

Bought a 1973 Morgan 36' Out Island Ketch in St. Thomas in 2011. Boat was owned as a liveaboard by a shipwright working for one of the charter companies. The boat was in good condition but dated. I sailed it around the Caribbean until 2014 when I was transferred to Nebraska. The boat sat on a mooring in Puerto Rico and basically went to s*** in the tropic. Brought it up to my current location in in CT in 2015 and been 2 summers doing a complete overhaul. Engine, Trans, sails, rigging, lighting, stove/oven, steering, radar, rewiring of both masts, stripped the deck and rebeded everything, all new mast lighting, wind generator, battery monitors, 5 new batteries, new hull liner, new interior cushions, new wood trim, new head pumps (2), new bilge pump and control switch, new interior lighting, all new Beckson opening ports (12), rebuilt rudder, new prop shaft, cutlass bearing and stuffing box.........


Had 2 surveys done...a before overhaul survey of just the structure to make sure moving forward was a good idea. The boat surveyed very structurally sound with no defects noted. Had another survey performed this past October just to have another set of eyes check my work and this also had no defects and listed the boat as she sits at $35k which is not bad.


Cost is about 30k so far not including what I paid for the boat.. Have only a few things left to connect before she is back in the water but now am facing a job transfer again so probably looking to list her for sale.


So if anyone is interested in a 95% complete 100% new Out Island let me know.....

[JOHNMARDALL]

In working through this, a first step is to decide if you are going to do all refit and maintenance work yourself or have it done by others. This is essential because unpredictable and unexpected work is revealed as you move existing equipment, work spaces are confined and surfaces are rarely straight or square to each other, so boat work is slow and difficult. I'm an avid (addicted?) DIY boater and enjoy doing it, which some of my friends and family members view as a form of insanity.
When you're budgeting your boat project, allow for the reality that if you will be paying others to do the work, labor costs will often be more than equipment costs and that labor costs will be greatly effected by accessibility. For example, on a recent major sailboat refit, with the engine in the space under the cockpit, we had to remove the engine and fuel tank suspended over it to even see the stuffing box, which needed to be replaced. The cost of the stuffing box became irrelevant and in the end we replaced the engine, tank and stuffing box to avoid having to pull it all out again when the inevitable happened to the engine. If you're doing it yourself, you not only need the knowledge, tools and equipment, but also a lot of time, so don't plan any major DIY project as a weekends-only job - it's so inefficient to repeatedly start and stop that the project may not be finished in your life time.

So, buy your boat - boating is one of the best things in life, but understand what you're getting into with an old boat and if you want to go out on the water now and stay out on the water, buy a new, nearly new or recently refitted boat.

Good luck
John Mardall
Vetus Maxwell Group

[Vasco]

I bought a shiny new production boat 14 years ago. She was well equipped for cruising. If I sold her today Soldboat data indicates I could expect about 60% of my initial outlay. In the intervening years I have upgraded electronics, installed solar panels, changed to led lighting, added and replaced canvas, new upholstery, replaced god knows what including two or three heads, new dink and motor (last year so I remember about 7K) and wherever possible I did the labour.

A boat is a money pit. It makes no economic sense whatsoever. However the 14 seasons spent cruising on this boat have been priceless. Except for the times when everything goes wrong and I yell, "sell the effing boat"!

[FionaJC]

1. What make and year boat did you buy? How long did you keep it? When did you sell it? What did you buy it for, and what did you sell it for?
1986. I was building a 30' boat when I saw the Colvic Victor 40' fell in love with it and researched my choice. 2000, still got it, Assuming you mean how much rather than purpose - Priced at £20K haggled down to £13,000 The broker thought it was a wreck, the finance house wanted a quick forced sail and I knew the potential. ( I had found a hidden 3 year old survey on board giving it a 100% bill of health - it was accurate as it turned out)

2. Was the boat in good condition or a "project" boat? If a "project" boat how much did you put into it to bring up to speed?
The boat was an internal wreck but had never been on the water, no gear for sailing and mooring. Had all the sails and an engine (which I later discovered worked but changed two seasons ago). Around £12,000-£15,000 but less due to ebay and boat jumbles.

3. How old were when you bought the boat?
<45 it was an incentive for giving up smoking at £3k per annum.

4. During the time you owned the boat what refits did you do, and more importantly what refits were needed because of the age of the boat (versus the age of the system you were upgrading).
Internal furniture, all interior and exterior fittings, electronics, engine controls. Recently complete uprate of the GPS, Radar, LED lighting, charging, solar, added my own electronics, stackpacks, dodgers, heating, cooling.

5. Lastly, would you do it again (particularly do you wish you'd bought a newer boat)?
I own my perfect boat now so why do it again? Will I do another? No, it was a one off. If I knew what I know now would I do it - definitely, oh yes every time, mostly doing the same thing but maybe some different routes and methods. For example I did all the woodwork with a cheap mitre saw and two cheap Nicad drills. I wish I had the expensive RAGE saw and Bosch Lithium drill I have now. Been thinking about this. I wouldn't change the layout even after 10 years afloat. I could not get what I have now without spending twice as much. I kept sailing in dinghies, doing yachty courses and other peoples crew to be afloat during the 7 building years.

[dcstrng]

1. What make and year boat did you buy? How long did you keep it? When did you sell it? What did you buy it for, and what did you sell it for? 1970 Bristol 24 -- $600 – still have it – I like the heavy Paul Coble design (poor man’s Cape Dory… Dana… whatever). Bought it for Bay cruising and has done very well – it will surprise folks with the weather it will stand up to (comfortable) -- Still have it, getting ready for another incremental refit.

2. Was the boat in good condition or a "project" boat? If a "project" boat how much did you put into it to bring up to speed? Most parts were there, but most definitely a project (always will be – I like to putter).

3. How old were when you bought the boat? Mid-50s (am slightly north of 70 now)

4. During the time you owned the boat what refits did you do, and more importantly what refits were needed because of the age of the boat (versus the age of the system you were upgrading). Repaint hull – reground below waterline, lots of epoxy/silica – some major, some minor repairs, all mostly fun… new cushions, the usual odds and ends. Couple of used and semi-new sails, the usual stuff… what was absolutely needed then was the hull work and a new motor (outboard), the rest is mostly fun, but I now have a soft spot by one of the lifeline stanchions I need to replace – and frankly a whole raft of things on my want to do list – new handrails, ports, hatch, vents – you name it, I probably want it…

5. Lastly, would you do it again (particularly do you wish you'd bought a newer boat)? Still am – and we bought a newer larger ODay30 that mama likes – I put the B24. "Angels Wings" up for sale, and took down the ad within three days… Wings is mine and I expect I’ll keep it that way…

[jflynn129]

Interesting discussion. Everyone has different reasons and attempts different financial justifications in their mind. I've had two older boats, sold one (it was an 1976 C&C 30') and still own the second (a 1976 Gulfstar 37' sloop) having recently purchased it last year (guess I'm stuck back in 1976 ).

The first boat I purchased (the C&C) I kept for 3 years (in Seattle), bought it for $17K and sold it for $14K. Added a GPS to it, had the bottom painted and the most major item, had the engine head gasket replaced. All total I guess I put about 4K into it so a total cost of 21-14=7K for 3 years of enjoyment, a lot of sailing and experiencing the Pacific NW/Puget sound, I think it was worth it.

I now live in NC and when I considered it this time around, the financial aspect really fell into two categories:
1) the cost of the boat and usability
2) the cost of a slip to put it

I went with #2 as the first consideration because my history was I had problems finding a slip to rent and I hate the idea of giving someone north of $300 a month for simply parking my boat ($3600 per year). Not only that, but a lot of places you have to get on a waiting list for a slip and there is no assurance that you will not be asked to move on short notice.

So I looked around and found a Slip I could purchase (a slip condo?), negoiated the price and purchased it before I bought a boat. There are still fees--a dock owners association monthly fee--but I don't have to worry about being asked to move, wondering if they will increase the price of rent (though there is the inevitable DOA monthly that happens every few years).

After the slip, I found a 1976 Gulfstream that would fit in the slip, had it surveyed, and finding no giant red flags purchased it. The boat had been used for cruising and wasn't in terrible condition, but was definately suffering from lack of care. It had an AC on board that didn't work, the Radar didn't work and the line to it had been cut but the antenna left on the mast. The refrigerator didn't work but had been recently replaced (it turned out the cooling water pump was not working and would thus shut off after it got hot), the VHF that was installed at the nav station didn't work, the cabin lights were hit & miss working, and the bottom hadn't been painted in >4 years but didn't have any major issues identified during the survey and haul out. My take on it was the PO wasn't a handy guy and paid to have everything done. Most often the cheapest way to get things fixed was to hire Joe in the boat next door to fix it for you so the quality of the repairs wasn't that great.

On the plus side, the engine had been recently overhauled, the fiberglass was in good shape with no major blistering or delamination, there was a complete inventory of sails, and a new VHF had been purchased but kind of rigged up to work. Also there was a nice Garmin GPS already installed and the autopilot worked (though it is old).

I am refiting the boat currently, had the bottom painted, some fiberglass repaired, and fixing the bilge pumps that were not working correctly. I think that by the time I'm done, I will have about 10-20K in fixing it up the way I want it. I want to be able to cruise to FLA and vicinity. So all total, I ended up sinking:
25K for a slip (which I could rent out if I wanted to recoup my monthly expense)
25K for the 1976 37' Gulfstar
15K for refit (I just took the middle of 10-20K as an estimate)

So for a total of 65K I feel like I'm in a pretty good spot. If I sell the boat, I look less at what I am getting out of it $ wise, and more what did I get out of it pleasure wise. I enjoy working on the boat, fixing things, and replacing things and I also enjoy sailing. I am planning on keeping it until I can't sail any more (I'm 59 right now) so when I sell it, I think anything I get back will be just pure bonus. I full anticipate I will get 25-40K worth of pleasure out of it--after all, that is less than a lot of cars cost now days. And the slip, well I own it so if I'm not using it to store my boat, it is an income opportunity for me by renting.

In the end, I guess it is all in how you look at it and where you place your priorities in life.

[Dave22q]

After 10 or more years condition is far more important than age. For example, I bought a 1976 boat but it had a major refit in 2008. For most purposes the subsystems are 10 year old rather than 40. Both a thorough survey and good service records are critical in valuing an older boat,

[MartinR]

Cost of buying a 98 year old boat:1 X
Money spent during 17 year ownership: 5X
(+ around 4000hours)
Recouped after selling at 115 years: 1 X

Maybe not the best affair, but of course, I would do it again

Learnt a lot and had a lot of fun.


I am sure, my new(er) boat will show much better figures in 20 years

[dcstrng]

I suspect at one time or another we’ve all tried to analyze/rationalize/justify boating-sailing procurements as investments – like most adult toys (exotic cars, airplanes, motorhomes -- and these days even vacation property, whatever), usually the best we can hope for is we’ll break even (and that assumes we factor in how much we’d have to spend entertaining ourselves or lowering our blood pressure doing something else). Doing some sort of a cost-benefit analysis is certainly worthwhile; however, I’ve long questioned where the “consequence paradigm” should be measured in dollars/Euros/whatever…

[TheThunderbird]

If you buy a new boat, it makes sense to check whether it is better to sell it or to keep it. Each and every passing year. Depreciation runs fast, thus it is a sensible questioning.

After say 15years, depreciation is gone, levelled off.
Assuming that the boat size and type is what you like, and considering that a well built boat may well outlast your active lifetime, you face two gracious issues

1. How much is the ongoing cost of use and maintenance (almost independent on the new/used status)
2. How much you want/can spend for much wished but unnecessary upgrades (similarly, little difference between New/Old boat)

Given the assumptions above, residual value is trivial, and when discounted to a present value equivalent after 10+ years, it is a financial zero, less the costs of disposal!

All the money spent for the initial upgrading adds to the purchase cost,

Life is not measured by the money. If you go skiing, it costs you say 100$ a day, and at the end residual value is a cold nose. Wanna give up skiing for that?

If you race, you spend tonns of $. Even a pet costs you say 1000$ per year, thinking of selling it like a cow?

Money has little to do with boating and life afloat IMO. If you optimize everything, you optimize everything and die earlier, and unhappy.

Only the millionaires can afford a custom project for their dream boat brand new, starting from a clean sheet to the last detail. Unless you love a dory, and build it yourself....,:-)

PS personally, l like modern classics from the '70-80s in GRP. I have no choice in considering a brand new plastic_fantastic, even a Wally or a brand new Swan is hideous to me...So, I have/had no choice, EASY.

It implies a lot of work though and, as demonstrated by others, another 60% to 100% on top of purchase price. Just factor it.

The only wrong thing is
To work on a boat you dislike
To run short of the money honestly needed to complete project

[olaf hart]

Bought two new boats, lost about 20% on resale.

Bought a lot of used boats, resale is pretty much same as purchase price, so whatever I spent on them was a loss.

Not spending much upgrading current boat, I now look for boats others have spent money on. Seems to work so far.....

[robert sailor]

I guess we are in A64Pilots corner. Older boat that looks like new, tons of money put into it but it's smart money because we love everything about it. Boats are not financial investments but they are investments in fun, adventure,new experiences and making new friends. These are very wise investments over the long run so it makes perfect sense for us. It's not for souls that need to account financially for every dollar spent because the payoff is not financial but there is a huge payoff and it's in bringing something new and exciting into your life. Now like many others when hit by a major expense that was unexpected you wont see me blowing stars about my experience but life moves on and soon your all smiles again. The boating life certainly is not for everyone because of the costs.