Fin Keel vs. Full Keel

[Hiracer]

Bob,

I'm glad you knew I was pulling your leg. My boat is out of Anacortes. Usually the best sailing is right there in Quemes Channel, with all the stupid boat traffic. Soon as I hit the more open water, just south of Cypress and Blakely Islands, the wind almost always gives up. I think you guys down south have better winds, but we got the better anchorages. Was my wife's call, to get slip up north. Of course, now she will not get on the boat but I've grown to like it up north.

I still new to sailing in the area (third summer coming) but I've definitely learned to read the current book. I'm a slow learner but if you are under endowed in the engine department like me (and hate the noise anyhow), you gotta play the currents for sure. I finally have one book at the boat, and one at home. Actually, that's two books at each spot, but you know what I mean.

I sailed all winter finally. Found the sailing more better. Found out after the sun goes down it's important to keep the heater on, even if sailing for a long time, because otherwise the foredeck gets icy. Learned that the hard way too. Yikes.

[TAREUA]

Hiracer I'll be heading south over Memorial weekend so you can expect a big blow from the south. It should reverse itself Monday at dawn.
Mr. Perry it was nice to hear an explanation of full keels. I hear people talk about having true full keels and I think, 'why does it start way back there then?' For better or worse, (and I am unable to load pictures here) a Freeport 41 has a full keel as I understand it.

[speedoo]

Hey Bob, are you a pastrami fan? If so, I am sure you've had some great pastrami in New York, but did you know there are a couple of great pastrami places in Ft. Lauderdale?

My favorite has been Pomperdale on E. Commercial, but now I see Pastrami Club on N. University near Commercial is getting great reviews. I'll try it next month when I get down there again.

Oh and thanks to you and John for the Puget Sound local knowledge. I'll try to put it to some use next time I am out that way.

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by TAREUA

Hiracer I'll be heading south over Memorial weekend so you can expect a big blow from the south. It should reverse itself Monday at dawn..

LOL. I'll be doing the opposite migration and blessing you all the way.

Probably Sucia for me, or places nearby.

[bob perry]

Tareua:
Yes, the Freeport 41 would a a perfect example of a true "full keel" design.

I hope you get a solid 25 knots out of the north for your trip south.
It is possible.

Hi:
Funny thing here is that I can sail in light stuff all the way back to Shilshole then around 3pm the wind will pick up blow a steady 15 right of the entrance to the marina. Just about the time I'm ready to drop the sails.

Speed:
I like Pastrami but I seldom get to FL. I'm a bit isolated up here so I try to stick up on lunch items that will not get too boring. This week it has been pastrami. My best pastrami sandwich was from the Cargnegie Deli in NYC. It was 5" high.

[speedoo]

Originally Posted by TAREUA

Mr. Perry it was nice to hear an explanation of full keels. I hear people talk about having true full keels and I think, 'why does it start way back there then?' For better or worse, (and I am unable to load pictures here) a Freeport 41 has a full keel as I understand it.

Well, I'm pretty sure Mr. Perry will know for sure whether the Freeport 41 has a full keel or something else. I hear he designed that boat!

[TAREUA]

Actually I did have one day of 25 knots out of the south last year. One, but it was glorious, and even sunny!
Mr. Perry I believe re did some of the interior on that boat when they changed it from my walkover model to the walk thru version.

[TAREUA]

South, North, whatever. Maybe that's my problem.

[speedoo]

Originally Posted by bob perry

Tareua:
Yes, the Freeport 41 would a a perfect example of a true "full keel" design.

I hope you get a solid 25 knots out of the north for your trip south.
It is possible.

Speed:
I like Pastrami but I seldom get to FL. I'm a bit isolated up here so I try to stick up on lunch items that will not get too boring. This week it has been pastrami. My best pastrami sandwich was from the Cargnegie Deli in NYC. It was 5" high.

Carnegie Deli is a kick isn't it? All those pictures on the walls... I could easily spend a full day there just looking at the pictures. Did you ever see the Woody Allen movie "Broadway Danny Rose"? Much of it was filmed there... very funny movie.

Carnegie's pastrami is very good, but I hear Katz' Deli downtown is even better. Stage Deli, a block or two from Carnegie is also very good.

[Cheechako]

Yea, the best sails I had on the Sound were a beam reach accross from shilshole and back! It was lovely in the summer, get a few people, wine or some Jameson, cheese and whatever....

[TAREUA]

Cheechako your right, I should just head due west every time, but you can only visit Pt. Roberts so many times before they think you're a smuggler. I was on the Freeport 41 owners site today and several of the boats are cruising in the tropics and they were discussing all the extra hatchs, ports and fans they had added to keep cool. I just finished building a hard top for the center cockpit to help keep the rain out and the heat in. Hot cold full fin, the wine at the end of the day is just as good.

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by TAREUA

Hot cold full fin, the wine at the end of the day is just as good.

Hear, hear. Just being on the water; that's what it's really all about. Some of my best days at 'sail' have been on anchor, hammock between forestay and mast, drinking beer, and reading a good book. Maybe snoring a bit too.

[Dick Pluta]

TAREUA,

Nice to see another Freeport 41 here. I've been reading this thread with considerable interest, especially the comments by Bob Perry. All I can say is, I made the switch from my (unquestionably) fin keel Pearson 30 to the Freeport 41. It's almost as extreme a transition as you can get. For what it's worth, here is my read of the differences between the two.

Pearson - goes like stink to windward, turns on a dime, cruises like a camper and needs constant attention to go in a straight line.

Freeport - Good enough for what it's for to windward, turns eventually, lives like a condo, will go straight to the horizon if you don't tell it otherwise. Almost never gets the rail wet.

I bought the Pearson when I was a younger man, 39 years old. I loved beating the pants off bigger boats in the informal races out of the harbor and back. I get wet and cold and I loved it..then.

In August, I'll be 70. Now my boat has heat and air conditioning. I can have ice in my drink after a week away without buying it. I take a shower when I want without worrying about water. I'm now the guy the P30's blow past, rail under. I still love it and I'm happy for them, but that was then, this is now. What made me happy then would probably still make me happy now but I really like where I am, regardless of what you call your keel. Different strokes, as they say.

Dick PLuta
AEGEA

[Hiracer]

Dick,

I agree with everything you said, except your attribution of your current boat's performance to her keel.

The keel is only one part of the boat. Sailing performance is the sum of the entire boat. Displacement, full form, rudder, sails, etc., all count.

It is possible to have a very similar boat such as yours, but with a fin keel.

When we found out that Keelboat's less than windworthy boat was a twin keeler, we assumed that the stubby doubled keels were to blame. And, in part, they are. But Bob Perry gets one look a the hull and declares that the hull is full forward and no fin keel in the world is going to make her fast. Thus, it was really a hull issue more than a keel issue, although both certainly contributed.

My point being that myself and others here mis-attributed the boat's windward performance to the keel(s) until Bob got at look at the boat in slings, which is when he figured out the windward performance was more attributable to the the hull than the keel.

I'm suggesting that the boat you love is also more the product of the hull and sails than the keel. I think that's true with most boats. We like to simplify boat performance to just one or two items, but boat performance is way more complicated than that.

Sure, certain hull forms and sail plans tend to relate best to certain keels types. No agrument there. But when it comes time to attribute sailing performance to boat design, I think we amatures tend to overestimate the effect of keel shapes and underestimate hull forms, sail plans, and whatnot.

I say this because I've had two boats, each performed much like the two you have had. I'm getting older too and I very much like the more sedate sailing of my current boat. Only both of mine boats were fin keelers, albeit my current fin keel is shallow and long, very cruiser like in heritage. My current 36er sounds like it performs much like your 41er, probably because we share similar hull forms and displacements, different keels notwithstanding.

[Dick Pluta]

Actually, my comments intended to say the exact opposite. I'm not an advocate of any keel design. As this thread shows, we tend to get all wrapped up in a detail and forget about the whole. This seems to be true with all human endeavors. What's better, a fish or a horse. Well, it depends on what you want to do with it.

As an example, I was recently crossing the St. Lucie inlet in rough water at low tide. We bumped the bottom and would almost certainly would have bent the spade rudder of the Pearson. The Islander, with it's attached rudder, was the right boat at that moment. All the performance attributes of a spade rudder notwithstanding, it was the wrong thing for that moment. The boat is not the keel or the rudder or the hull design or the deck layout. It's the totality of the vessel as it relates to what you need at that moment. When I wanted to be a hot shot, the Pearson was the right boat. Now I want to be comfortable and the Islander is the right boat. It's the totality of the vessel that matters.

Once upon a time there was a full keel boat. It was hot stuff. It was so hot that the best racers in the world refused to meet her. Her name was America. I doubt that anyone would suggest putting a full keel on the AC boats of today. That was then and this is now. Racing is racing and cruising is cruising. What is great for one can be a disaster for the other.

Dick