Fin Keel vs. Full Keel

[keelbolts]

I don't want to offend anybody and I readily admit I'm not even an amateur boat designer. I've read a bit about it, but my statements are 99% "seat of the pants." I've sailed both & I've found modified full keeled boats to be more comfortable and better to windward than fin keeled boats. As I said, I have a fin keeled boat that I'm very happy with. I'm just singing the praises of my old boat. On Favona, nobody passes me to windward without a motor. On Dunlin, everybody does.

If you're happy with your boat, then who am I?

[bob perry]

"full keeled boats...better to windward than fin keel boats".
It's noon, lunch time.
I think I'll go fishing.

[Hiracer]

It's interesting to compare the keel in dockhead's picture to keel in keelboat's picture.

Not all keels, full or fin, are created equal. For example, there are fin keels (high aspect) and then there are fin keels (not-so-high aspect). So, to just generically compare the performance of a 'fin' keel to a full keel is loaded with potential contradictions.

Don't think you'll ever see a fin keel like in dockhead's picture on a race boat.

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by keelbolts

On Dunlin, everybody does.

What make and model is Dunlin?

[Hiracer]

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tml#post206740

Originally Posted by keelbolts

I have two. Favona. a 32'6" British ocean racer. Winner of the 1953 Fastnet and a, as yet unnamed, 23' Westerly Pageant.

After lunch, comment Bob? I don't know a 23' Westerly Pageant.

Westerly Pageant archive details - Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales

Appears to me to be a twin bilge keeler. If so, not exactly representative of fin keelers.

I would expect Favona to beat the pants off a Westerly Pageant 23 to windward.

[Hiracer]

Nice boats, BTY, keetbolts. I applaud your taste in boats. You go for strength in a boat. I like that.

[bob perry]

Twin keel or bilge keel boats have always been notoriously slow even the beautuful old Bluebird of Thorne. The wetted surface penalty of two, both almost full size, fin keels is just too much for these boats to have any speed. So Hi is right. There are fins and there are fins. DO NOT generalize. I know some "modified full keel" boats that are great sailors. I know some fin keel pigs. There are always exceptions. I am not saying bilge keelers are bad boats but unless those bilge keels are asymetrical foils and are retractable they are not going to qualify as what I call fast. To use a twin keeled boat as an example of fin keel performance upwind is not productive.

Saw a nice jumper, hooked two, landed none so fishing was less than great. But it was nice to stand out there, have a pipe and consider keels.

[Hiracer]

Westerly Pageant 23 foot Bilge Keel Yacht

Picture of Westerly Pageant 23.

Twin bilge keelers are designed to sit dry when the tide goes out, so you don't have to pay slip fees at an expensive marina that might be dredged out. Just hook up to floating mooring and let her sit tight when tide goes out. Great solution for that particular issue.

You have to judge each boat on her own terms.

[speedoo]

Originally Posted by Hiracer

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tml#post206740





After lunch, comment Bob? I don't know a 23' Westerly Pageant.

Westerly Pageant archive details - Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales

Appears to me to be a twin bilge keeler. If so, not exactly representative of fin keelers.

I would expect Favona to beat the pants off a Westerly Pageant 23 to windward.

With a draft of 2'10" (per the link) a Westerly Pageant is generating very little keel lift and would have difficulty staying with a lot of boats upwind.

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by speedoo

With a draft of 2'10" (per the link) a Westerly Pageant is generating very little keel lift and would have difficulty staying with a lot of boats upwind.

Yes, plus the surface drag of two keels, as Bob says. Double whammy against upwind performance. Certainly not representative of fin keels as a whole.

[bob perry]

Look at that hull on the Westerly. That boat would be slow upwind with a six foot fin and bulb keel. It's a lovely boat I'm sure but there is nothing at all about that design that will make it be fast upwind regardless of the keel geometry. Upwind speed just wasn't in the original design brief. Had it been the hull would have a lot less volume and the interior would not be as nice as it is now. So there is a trade off. I am in no way knocking that boat but an upwind rocket it is not.

[forsailbyowner]

Who wants to sail upwind anyway? Slam bam crash heeled over for hours on end. I realize sometimes you have to but I think wife would mutiny if I told her were going to beat upwind for the next two days. Ill stick with my full keel and straight tracking tendencies.

[bob perry]

For:
that's a personal sailing "style" issue and not a design issue.
In Puget Sound we have the chance to beat about half the time. It's either upwind or downwind around here. If you enjoy sailing it's nice to have a boat that can effectively and efficiently carve it's way to weather, especially in a blow.

Some of the best tracking boats I have ever sailed. and I have sailed a lot of boats, have had short chord deep fins and big spade rudders. I would never make the assumption that just because a boat has a fin keel it will not track.

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by bob perry

In Puget Sound we have the chance to beat about half the time. It's either upwind or downwind around here.

Are you on drugs? That's not my experience. I go out and beat against the wind for half day. Then, I turn around and motor home because the wind has died.

Said not entirely tongue in cheek.

[bob perry]

Hi:
No, not on drugs unless you count a pastrami sandwich with dill pickles as drugs.

If I am going north I play the tides to get an extra knot or two but I try to leave as early as possible So I seldom have any wind in the morning and I motor along at my standard 5 knots, the best cruising speed for my 9.5 hp Volvo diesel. But by lunchtime that northely begins to fill as I get above the convergent zone and I can enjoy a nice beat up to PT or PL depending upon time and my mood. Coming home I try to leave later so that I can catch the northerly all the way and because my boat is no light air rocket I reach back and forth to keep boat speed up. If it blows then so much the better. But, if I can do over 3.5 to 4 knots under sail I am not going to motor, upwind or down ( usually). Again, it's a personal sailing style thing. Given a weekend on Puget Sound, as you no doubt know, we generally see a bit of everything.