Even mono sailors advise is appreciated

[andreavanduyn]

Dear all,

My husband and I are having the urge to leave the shores but build our own dream yacht after experiencing mono's from 40' upwards.

We like to share your advise in how to get this project on the water; input welcome from all experienced mono and cat sailors/racers.

Our initial idea is a trimaran; not a cat. Having raced cats unto and including the worlds for 18', I am desperate to finally own and enjoy a fast yacht but due to our age also comfortable and safe. The cat is not such yacht; pitching and capsizing being an issue if you can buy one that is really fast and designed for speed......few brands come to mind.

The Trimaran has captured our minds due to the success of the 'Neel 45' despite apparently some poor (French) construction work......

Who as owner of a mono or cat with family feeling and kids or not can help us to design the 'ultimate' fast trimaran for us as a couple with visitors or a couple that visits for long term fun on board.....ps* we are near retiring age.....

**please leave the comments of capsized and other 'funny' examples of trimarans; not interested in smart comments with negative frequencies.

Find enclosed the initial thoughts of us on paper.

feel free to shoot

[skipmac]

With your experience I'm guessing it is already obvious to you that in multihulls the performance is very much related to weight. If you want all the comforts, parts, tools and spares on your trimaran and you also want speed then you will need to go larger to get both.

Also a fast tri will generally have small, narrow amas so you're giving up living and storage space as well.

Boats are the classic example of tradeoffs. Everything comes with a cost. Weight costs you speed. Living space costs you speed. Speed costs you money. Strength costs you money OR weight.

I think to a great degree it will come down to a decision on your part what you want to have and what you can give up.

[Training Wheels]

Rapido 60!


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[andreavanduyn]

We are thinking around 40' ; that is big enough for 2 couples and less expensive as the Neel 45'

[Stumble]

If I was in the market right now I would probably buy Paradox. Basically an Orma 60 modified with a cruising interior, a little narrow, and a lot smaller rig. Basically she is what happens when you turn a maxed out racing tri into a family boat. She is also currently up for sale for about $1 million off what a new Neel 65 goes for.

By getting all the race gear off and cutting down the rig and the amas you actually get back a good bit of load carrying capacity. Not a lot by 60' monohull standards, but monohulls can't manage a 500nm average over three days either (paradox has done so), or reasonably expect a 350nm passage planning average.

2010 Marsaudon Composite 62 ft Cruiser Racer Trimaran Sail Boat For Sale

Edit: if you want to stay closer to 45' then http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1989...s#.VwQqvPA8KrU it's still bigger than you want at 55 but far less money than a Neel 45.

[maxingout]

If I wanted to go fast, I would pull a high performance catamaran behind Exit Only on a very long bungee chord, and when I wanted to go fast, I could easily get it out of my system.

When we sailed across the South Pacific, we met some cruisers who pulled a twenty-foot catamaran on a bungee from the Caribbean all the way to French Polynesia. We met them in Fiji, and they had an awesome time.

I did not go for a trimaran because of the beam which made marinas a major challenge.

I can see certain cruising destination that it would have been great to have a trimaran, but it would need to be very big to accommodate our family of four plus occasional guests.

I have known people who sailed fast on large trimarans, but they needed crew as they were nearing retirement age, and they could not comfortably handle it alone in the trade winds.

I look forward to the design you come up with and the size that makes it possible to achieve your goals.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by andreavanduyn

We are thinking around 40' ; that is big enough for 2 couples and less expensive as the Neel 45'

A 40' high performance tri with room for two couples will be pretty cramped.

Plus to keep it light enough to maintain very good performance you will need to really watch every bit of gear that goes on board. Otherwise you will end up with a boat that is just marginally faster than a monohull.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by skipmac

A 40' high performance tri with room for two couples will be pretty cramped.

Plus to keep it light enough to maintain very good performance you will need to really watch every bit of gear that goes on board. Otherwise you will end up with a boat that is just marginally faster than a monohull.

reminds me of a guy that said he wants fast cat, not anything looking remotely like condomaran. And in next sentence asked which fast cat has big enough bathoroom

considerable comfort or/and large $$$$ sacrifices are required for decent speed potential.

[Training Wheels]

Don't think you can beat Juniper 2 for bang for the buck.


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[Stumble]

Just to be clear (from a responce to my post). You cannot get close to as much living space in a performance 50' as you have in a 50' monohull. Length for length you will have the most interior room in a Cat, then a monohull, then a trimaran.

Generally to match a cat the monohull needs to be about 50% longer, I have no idea for a trimaran however. To match a 40' mono would probably require something on the order of a 70' trimaran, up until the addition of a bridge deck (ala Neel) starts to work.

As for the Neel, I like them, and am curious about them, but nothing I have seen so far indicates they are any faster than a production cat. Somewhere around the same speeds as a faster Lagoon design.

The boats I linked before are far more performance oriented. Able to cross oceans in a fraction the time of a monohull the same size without needing to press the boat terribly hard. 300nm days become the low end of average, not the mythical 'hope for' passage rate. But the trade off is far less livable space than an equivilant sized monohull. Though you do have acres of outdoor space to lounge on.

[daletournier]

This has already been said but worth repeating. I've been on the Chris White Juniper shown a few posts back. Really liked the boat, but the footprint that it has is huge relative to the interior space. We often talk about how much space a boat has eg. Gemini 34 ( ive owned one)having more space than a equivalent size 34ft Beneteau, this maybe true but it's a different type of space, in my opinion no where near as roomy, you perceive the space differently.
The juniper may have a decent amount of space from a Sq meter perspective but it's along narrow space which changes everthing.
Putting that juniper into a marina in my opinion is problematic ,and living space isn't more comfortable than a 35-40ft modern mono. Interior space measured by numbers dosen't tell the whole story. Some big trade offs.
Cheers Dale .

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[daletournier]

One more thing, the claims of 300nm days I don't doubt are true BUT in the real world of cruising most likely aren't as common as some believe.
Henk de Velve who owned the Juniper specifically told me, more often than not he averages 180 - 200m per day.
This is guy that has circumnavigated 6 time's , very knowledgeable sailor and great guy.
Cheers Dale .

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[Stumble]

Originally Posted by daletournier

One more thing, the claims of 300nm days I don't doubt are true BUT in the real world of cruising most likely aren't as common as some believe.
Henk de Velve who owned the Juniper specifically told me, more often than not he averages 180 - 200m per day.
This is guy that has circumnavigated 6 time's , very knowledgeable sailor and great guy.
Cheers Dale .

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I was actually think of Paradox that routinely maintains speeds in the low teens without being pushed very hard.

But I actually find it difficult to believe that Juniper averages just over 8kn under sail. She is simply to fast for this, unless he was sailing solo and seriously depowering the boat for safety. Reefing a 50' tri solo at night is not for the faint of heart, even a non-sailor set of hands is a major help.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Stumble

I was actually think of Paradox that routinely maintains speeds in the low teens without being pushed very hard.

But I actually find it difficult to believe that Juniper averages just over 8kn under sail. She is simply to fast for this, unless he was sailing solo and seriously depowering the boat for safety. Reefing a 50' tri solo at night is not for the faint of heart, even a non-sailor set of hands is a major help.

I can only tell you what he told me, and yes he did sail solo . Obviously it's also influenced by where you sail. I have no reason to believe he was lying or my memory has failed me , but who knows it may be. .lol.... he was one of the most interesting and philosophical guys I've met. You can Google him.
He's also raced large cats solo around the world, so he's not shy of speed.
Cheers Dale.

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[daletournier]

I also met a guy in Malaysia that has a vested interest in the production of the Rapido 60......it sounds awesome. Out of my league in so many ways...lol.

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