Cutter theory

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Polux

Do you really think Comanche has a cutter rig? or are you just kidding? Difficult to say on internet Do you really think we should call cutters to all modern ocean racers that have several frontal sails? I mean practically all big ocean racers have them. Are they all cutters? Nobody calls them that.

Let's see:
- Mast aft of station 4? Check.
- Gaff rigged? Check (more or less).
- Two+ upwind sails? Check.

Your point about no one calling them cutters is true. But to some degree it's a semantics thing. In that it doesn't really matter much.

BTW, I enjoy your pics. Each tells a story, much as the quote about pictures says. And for me they auto resize. Expanding or contracting with the click of a button.

[Eder]

Man what a ruined thread. Arguing about the definition of a cutter rig rather than expounding on all the beneficial sail plans a stay sail allows.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by boatman61

This was my American built cutter.. designed by Cherubini.. lovely sailer..

An H37C?

Used to own one too...great boat.

[brianlara 3]

Originally Posted by Caribbeachbum

HAH! This is one of few things that I'm irrationally annoyed by in a serious way. Many people don't know better than to believe that an inner forestay is somehow a "cutter stay," even though there exists no such thing. Even on a true cutter, it's a staysail stay. Often when someone says their boat is a cutter, or cutter-rigged, it's actually a staysail sloop. The phrase "cutter-rigged ketch" is as ridiculous as the phrase "schooner-rigged sloop," yet I see the former on a regular basis.

Makes me crazy. I have to remind myself that the world outside will be exactly the same whether or not I correct somebody on this. So I just drink my beer and silently think unkind thoughts about their intellect...

Yes, it's irrational of me. I can't help it...

Thanks CBB, I'm a "stays'l sloop". I've been telling people that I converted it to a cutter. WRONG, and thank you !

[brianlara 3]

Originally Posted by Caribbeachbum

HAH! This is one of few things that I'm irrationally annoyed by in a serious way. Many people don't know better than to believe that an inner forestay is somehow a "cutter stay," even though there exists no such thing. Even on a true cutter, it's a staysail stay. Often when someone says their boat is a cutter, or cutter-rigged, it's actually a staysail sloop. The phrase "cutter-rigged ketch" is as ridiculous as the phrase "schooner-rigged sloop," yet I see the former on a regular basis.

Makes me crazy. I have to remind myself that the world outside will be exactly the same whether or not I correct somebody on this. So I just drink my beer and silently think unkind thoughts about their intellect...

Yes, it's irrational of me. I can't help it...

CBB. You ain't crazy at all. Me tinks that you are probably a 'giver' rather than a 'taker'.
You are probably a natural educator, a sharer of knowledge. Just a guess.
And maybe a perfectionist too. Sometimes not a good thing....don't ask how I know.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

An H37C?

Used to own one too...great boat.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Eder

Man what a ruined thread. Arguing about the definition of a cutter rig rather than expounding on all the beneficial sail plans a stay sail allows.

On the contrary, this thread seems an enormous success. Several posts before this, the OP testified that it has been most instructive and useful. We have not only had a discussion about the merits of multiple headsails and different arrangements of the same, but a little bit of history, as well as some consideration about the origins and evolution of the term "Cutter". I still wish we could agree to have more precise names for different things--calling a boat like Comanche a cutter is like calling a GPS an astrolabe--sure the purpose is similar, but the differences are more than the similarities. With the mast so far aft and so much headsail-dependence, I'd be inclined to call Comanche a Ketch with no mainmast. Perhaps a "Nomastke"? Sounds like an Indian word for something-or-other.
Ben
zartmancruising.com

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Lojanica

Holy mole, Comanche averaged 22kts and 25kts respectively on passages. AVERAGED!!!

Wish my "cutter" was that fast!!!

Yeah, but imagine trying to sleep off watch at over 25 knots!

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by brianlara 3

Thanks CBB, I'm a "stays'l sloop". I've been telling people that I converted it to a cutter. WRONG, and thank you !

One of my favorite names for a converted sloop...a "slutter rig". [emoji41]

[Laskadog]

OP here Still loving the thread, thanks. It sort has split into two, but learning and enjoying both topics. My question has been answered, and then some, but please keep the conversation going

[Jim Cate]

Re square top mains vs gaff rig:

Isn't one of the characteristics of a true gaff rig the presence of both peak and throat halyards? I do not see such on Comanche (lovely boat!), nor any other square headed main that has crossed my horizon.

Jim

[Polux]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Let's see:
- Mast aft of station 4? Check.
- Gaff rigged? Check (more or less).
- Two+ upwind sails? Check.

Your point about no one calling them cutters is true. But to some degree it's a semantics thing. In that it doesn't really matter much.

BTW, I enjoy your pics. Each tells a story, much as the quote about pictures says. And for me they auto resize. Expanding or contracting with the click of a button.

My first boat had a cutter rig, I mean, it had two upwind sails, it was gaff rigged but what is that about mast aft station four? certainly my old lady did not have that.....maybe it was not a cutter rigged and the IMOCA are the ones with a cutter rig

[SailingFan]

Ahhh... dangit... Now you folks have me thinking like the OP in this...

So, looking at that Hunter 37 makes me wonder how my 1978 Hunter 27 would do with a sail tacked to the mast at the spreaders too, making Equinox a FROBS (Fractional Rig Optioned Bermudan Sloop) perhaps?

The keel location won't change, but maybe the weather helm would be reduced somewhat with a bit of difference in the CE in a blow? Is there an advantage to adding this extra sail (I can make one myself, if I don't have to fly it all the time and can use the same "hanked onto a stainless steel line" tech that exists currently on this vessel), and it would seem like even on a boat as small as mine, it could come in handy in a blow, should I desire to remove the original jib and utilize that smaller fractional sailplan, or should I somehow lose the foresail?? Or perhaps as a weather solution to reduce heeling in rough crosswinds using the rapidly deployed storm sail concept? Thoughts?

My sails are both currently hanked on, and there is no financial reason I can determine that makes it wise to add a furler to the jib on this vessel at the moment. But would adding this second sail be of benefit, or even adding a line to the same forward mount to allow a true fractional rig possibility for this boat, or would the loss of forward deck space be so damaging that it is not worth the additional forward jib wire (and extra backstay)?

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Re square top mains vs gaff rig:

Isn't one of the characteristics of a true gaff rig the presence of both peak and throat halyards? I do not see such on Comanche (lovely boat!), nor any other square headed main that has crossed my horizon.

Jim

Many short gaffed rigs had only one halyard so it's not a conclusive point. I don't think the station 4 being that either, just a rule of thumb IMO.
And I'm serious about this (thou a bit cheeky in some respect). Anyway anyone taking a look at modern racers can't deny they have much more common with traditional gaff cutter than bermudan sloop of the same age. It's just the high tech gear and materials developed during the bermudan evolution taken in a better more efficient form of a gaff cutter.
The dinosaurs are back

BR Teddy

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

One of my favorite names for a converted sloop...a "slutter rig". [emoji41]

TTBOMK 'Slutter' was a word coined by Laurent Giles for a rig where a removeable inner forestay was fitted to some Vertues.... it was 'tacked' to the stem head so not really a converted sloop but 'neither/either sloop n/or cutter'.

My boat has a similar system.... removeable inner forestay is tacked immediately aft of the windlass... maybe 2 feet aft of the stemhead.

Maybe not for the purists but works good.... pic is #1 storm jib flying with full headsail. #2 or maybe #3 storm jib bent on under it (almost) ready to go.