Cutter Efficiency Sailing as a Sloop

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

+1



A cutter's staysail used as a storm jib is fabulous -- lowers the center of effort and brings it back towards the mast.

Staysail and deeply reefed main alone produces little heel, no weather helm, and is entirely self-tacking if your staysail is self-tacking. So all of a sudden, when conditions have gotten tough -- your boat becomes a cinch to sail -- the work load has been reduced by a factor of 5 -- best thing in the world when the conditions start to get a little hairy.

Yeah, took me a while to figure it out, but after doing hull speed with the 115% up, crashing through waves, spray flying and rail down bouncing around.... then with the staysail only, flat, pretty smooth and doing the same speed...... wow!

[hump57]

Thank you to all for great insights, it was exactly the information I was hoping to obtain.
jeff

[roverhi]

I very strongly disagree on having a staysail boom. The way they are typically rigged, they end up with a sail with a big sag in the leach as soon as you crack off. You have to vang them down to get a proper setting sail which totally goes against the reason to have one in the first place. There are ways to stop the kiting of the boom when sheets are eased, the Hoyt Boom, but very few boats have such a set up.

But even the Hoyt Boom doesn't solve the problem of having that deck sweeping boom constantly in the way on the foredeck. The boom is in the way of using the windlass, setting an awning or just moving around freely on the foredeck. The worst, is the boom is a dangerous piece of hardware. It's called a boom for a reason and I have the scar to prove it. With the sheet eased, the boom kites to head height and an accidental jibe sweeps everything before it. Better wear a helmet if you've got one.

They are greatly overrated for self tacking. With our boomless staysail, I'd tack that sail in the time between releasing the leeward sheet on the jib and the bow coming through and needing to haul on the new sheet. Yes, I had to handle the sheet but it was in that brief time when I had nothing to do in tacking the Jib.

[Capt.Fred]

[QUOTE=roverhi;1298690]I very strongly disagree on having a staysail boom. The way they are typically rigged, they end up with a sail with a big sag in the leach as soon as you crack off./QUOTE]

I'm sorry you feel so strongly against a boomed staysail. My rigs overcome most of your objections and I control how flat the sail is from the cockpit. In fact I sail both the 50 footer and the 23 footer totally from the helm seat. I even anchor and retrieve my bow anchor to and from the bow from the cockpit. I'm a couple months from 80 years old, so I'd better have it all figured out by now. Also, I solo anywhere in most any conditions, but plan carefully to not get caught out in a catastrophe. Been lucky so far.

BTW, Look at thread number 7 above and see the Daedalus sailing a lee shore along the beach...do it all the time...If something went wrong, preventive action is always thought out before hand. Not after it happens. Or that boat would not be sailing there!

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

One thing to point out is that a cutter traditionally has the mast a bit further aft than a regular sloop... Of course, many "cutters" these days have the mast in the regular sloop position.

Good point. There are significant differences between a boat that was designed from the get-go to be a cutter, and one that was designed as a sloop and has just been retrofitted with an inner stay.

[Cheechako]

Yeah, it's all about sail balance and which sails you normally deploy I suppose. I made the "Of course, many "cutters" these days have the mast in the regular sloop position." statement on this forum a few months back and a few members were quick to correct me that many actually ARE designed as cutters..... even old Pearsons. I was quite surprised... in a good way... I would imagine Perry's rigs are designed that way too but never have checked.
Wonder how many really arent designed with the mast further back? Maybe it's more rare than we think. Cabo Rico? Island Packet? Valiant? Baba's?
Of course, I'm not sure it's a measurement of anything... as the more traditional, old Cutters had huge long bowsprits which counteracted the mast being further back (balance wise) ... and I assume this is where the definition of the cutter having the mast back came from....

[roverhi]

There are cutters and double headsail sloops. Any boat can have a staysail so have two headsails. It's not the number of headsails that make a boat a cutter but the position of the mast in relation to sail configuration.

A cutter has less sail area in the main and more in the foretriangle. Don't know if there is any percentage distribution like 50%/50% or what but a cutter is definitely headsail biased. For most boats, headsail area is increased by adding a bowsprit like the Bristol 40 cutter. The design was/is a CCA large main, small foretriangle inboard rig classic sloop. To increase performance in light air and squeeze a few more boats out of an old mold, Bristol added a bowsprit and called it a cutter. Other boats like the Atkins designs were created from the get go as cutters. The masts are forward in the hull but the bowsprit increases the sail area in the foretriangle. The IOR rule favored large headsail area with short boom mains. Even though they are called sloops, the foresail/main balance really makes them a cutter even without a staysail stay. The Tartan 41 is a prime example. The masts is about midship with a small main and huge foretriangle. Looks like a boat that would be a great cruising design by adding a staysail stay and sailing them with a double headsail rig. Actually think Tartan did that with the T42 which looks like a T41 hull mated to a more cruising oriented deck plan while keeping the mainsail to foretriangle sail area bias of the T41.

It's semantics, but a better description for many boats would be a double headsail sloop.

[Cheechako]

Apparantly here is today's definition:
"The cutter is one of several types of sailboats. Traditionally the sloop rig was a rig with a single mast located forward of 70% of the length of the sailplan. In this traditional definition a sloop could have multiple jibs on a fixed bowsprit.
Cutters had a rig with a single mast more centrally located, which could vary from 50% to 70% of the length of the sailplan, with multiple headsails and a running bowsprit. A mast located aft of 50% would be considered a mast aft rig.
Somewhere in the 1950s or 1960s there was a shift in these definitions such that a sloop only flew one headsail and a cutter had multiple headsails and mast position became irrelevant. In this modern idiom, a cutter is a sailing vessel with more than one head sail and one mast. Cutters carry a staysail directly in front of the mast, set from the forestay. A traditional vessel would also normally have a bowsprit to carry one or more jibs from its end via jibstay(s) on travelers (to preserve the ability to reef the bowsprit). In modern vessels the jib may be set from a permanent stay fixed to the end of a fixed (non-reeving) bowsprit, or directly to the stem fitting of the bow itself. In these cases, that may be referred to as the forestay, and the inner one, which will be less permanent in terms of keeping the mast up, may be called the stays'l stay. A sloop carries only one head sail, called either the foresail or jib"

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Apparantly here is today's definition:
"The cutter is one of several types of sailboats. Traditionally the sloop rig was a rig with a single mast located forward of 70% of the length of the sailplan. In this traditional definition a sloop could have multiple jibs on a fixed bowsprit.
Cutters had a rig with a single mast more centrally located, which could vary from 50% to 70% of the length of the sailplan, with multiple headsails and a running bowsprit. A mast located aft of 50% would be considered a mast aft rig.
Somewhere in the 1950s or 1960s there was a shift in these definitions such that a sloop only flew one headsail and a cutter had multiple headsails and mast position became irrelevant. In this modern idiom, a cutter is a sailing vessel with more than one head sail and one mast. Cutters carry a staysail directly in front of the mast, set from the forestay. A traditional vessel would also normally have a bowsprit to carry one or more jibs from its end via jibstay(s) on travelers (to preserve the ability to reef the bowsprit). In modern vessels the jib may be set from a permanent stay fixed to the end of a fixed (non-reeving) bowsprit, or directly to the stem fitting of the bow itself. In these cases, that may be referred to as the forestay, and the inner one, which will be less permanent in terms of keeping the mast up, may be called the stays'l stay. A sloop carries only one head sail, called either the foresail or jib"

Good stuff.

I think the traditional definitions hardly apply to our boats in any case. What we call cutters today have little to do with "real" cutters -- correct. But what we call sloops today also bear little to no resemblance to "real" sloops according to the traditional definition.

So probably the vulgar common usage -- sloop has no permanent inner forestay and generally flies a single headsail; cutter has a permanent inner forestay and a staysail always at the ready -- is quite reasonable.

So do I have a double-headed sloop? I think that's a fair description. Or a cutter? Also a fair description. SO take your pick.

[giant]

Cutters rule for cruising.

As others have said.

Mostly the advantage comes when the wind picks up and you can reef the main and sail on a self tacking staysail (no foresail) with a balanced sail plan and a relatively flat and fast boat. Don't need a boom on the staysail to make it a self tacker.

Don't like booms up front they take up too much deck space and don't see any need for them there. Don't like ketches and yawls much either more stuff to maintain and get in the way... I understand they have some advantages... and in saying that give me an Amel any day even though not a fan of center cockpits either.

Both your jib and staysail should be on a furler otherwise you will probably procrastinate changing sails etc.

Only disadvantage I can see with a staysail is when tacking the foresail can get hug up a bit on the inner stay... just takes a little technique and practice.