Commercial boat design

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Jaimesan

Well
- if typical holding tanks are at eye height inside the heads, the valve could be just under them. May make a problem if creatures enter the pipe upwards.
- put the pump behind a galley cabinet or behind the rest cushion of the saloon and not under the pillow of someone, how difficult is that?
- you haven’t seen the retractable cleats from Hanse, pure over engineering for no benefit.

I just don’t want to accept that this is the best that proper engineering and discipline coordination can produce.

- Full holding tanks are heavy, so usually they are put down low for better weight distribution.
- Cabinet space is for things that get used frequently. You don't need to access the water pump often, so it doesn't make sense to take valuable space for it.
- I don't know about the hanse models but I've seen pop up cleats. Nice after you stub your toe on a cleat but really, not screwing them down tight is not a design issue but a production problem. Personally, not crazy about them but they are likely an option when buying new on most boats.

Lots of compromises...but again it goes back to if you want "no compromise", you pay for custom boat...and even then as mentioned by others, you will spend a ton of time detailing your demands and if you dig your feet in, you may wind up with something bad because you didn't think of the issues.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

- Full holding tanks are heavy, so usually they are put down low for better weight distribution.
- Cabinet space is for things that get used frequently.

So that rules out holding tanks

[goboatingnow]

Pumps under beds are fine , there not a lot of pump running at 2am anyway. You could fit a nice quiet variable speed one.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

...Lots of compromises...but again it goes back to if you want "no compromise", you pay for custom boat...and even then as mentioned by others, you will spend a ton of time detailing your demands and if you dig your feet in, you may wind up with something bad because you didn't think of the issues.

And, as has happened to more than one excessively demanding custom boat buyer, the builder simply gives up and goes out of business leaving you with a partially finished boat you've paid a lot of money for and can't even get your hands on due to the demands of other creditors.

Or you could wind up owning the company thereby giving you a chance to prove your prowess at designing and building perfectly engineered boats.

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Jameson would not be the first to have such an industrial boat.



When we made our Serendipity 43 racing boat into a liveaboard we added no wall coverings or headliner and made no attempt to hide wires or pipes. We took care to have nice upholstery, good personal lighting, beautifully finished cabin sole and teak trim for our white walls, and in that way we created a very comfortable and homey boat.



But it is still very industrial



That was 1986

Still the vogue for full on racing boats and working ships

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Jameson would not be the first to have such an industrial boat.



When we made our Serendipity 43 racing boat into a liveaboard we added no wall coverings or headliner and made no attempt to hide wires or pipes. We took care to have nice upholstery, good personal lighting, beautifully finished cabin sole and teak trim for our white walls, and in that way we created a very comfortable and homey boat.



But it is still very industrial



That was 1986

Pictures please. That sounds quite unusual and interesting. Maybe even worth it's own thread:
Unconventional boats, inside and outside.

[Spot]

Jaimesan, are you familiar with Dan and Kika from https://sailinguma.com/?
Two architects, bought an older production sailboat and fitted it with a repaired structure, sails, electric motor, interior, etc.


PS: would also like to see more about Wingssail's boat

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Pictures please. That sounds quite unusual and interesting. Maybe even worth it's own thread:
Unconventional boats, inside and outside.

Probably not worth a thread. Once you see it you'll see that is just another old race boat (but one we find comfy).

This link has a few photos, the interior is towards the bottom. <Wingssail Images-Cruising Photos from Around the Pacific>

[LWatson]

They call them "Bendy Toys" for a reason.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

Still the vogue for full on racing boats and working ships

Neither of which anyone would volunteer to live on for long periods

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by LWatson

They call them "Bendy Toys" for a reason.

Ah no , halbert rassys are a big better then that , let’s not be unfair

[Jaimesan]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Pumps under beds are fine , there not a lot of pump running at 2am anyway. You could fit a nice quiet variable speed one.

Thank you for all your inputs. Pity we could not meet since last week I was sailing around Lefkada and dropped the charter yacht in Lefkas D-Marin.

In the end I see there are 2 kind of people:
1. The ones who accept with resignation the provided design and if any inconvenience found, blame it on the difficulty of multi-discipline coordination. The simple water pump: it is actually used during the night and it is noisy, it could be installed behind a panel at the back of a galley locker but people find excuses to accept having it under a pillow. I can live with that but does not stop bothering me.

2. The people who give their opinion without reflecting a bit. For example stating you have to do it yourself or you have to buy a bespoke designed yacht, that is not the point I wanted to ask. Or the holding tanks location in modern monohulls, pretty high actually if you remember they are above the toilet basins.

Typical charter day means leaving a port, (open holding tanks cause they may be full from the port time) reaching a beach (close the holding tanks for swimming), reaching a second beach and ending in a bay on anchor or entering a new port or marina (open and close the tanks to enter the port empty). That implies opening and closing the holding tanks at least 3 times a day, often with valves in weird locations.

I kind of see perhaps different opinions coming from US/Caribean located sailors and Med located ones?

I know the answer, buy the standard and modify as you wish if you can.

In any case thank you!

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Jaimesan

Typical charter day means leaving a port, (open holding tanks cause they may be full from the port time) reaching a beach (close the holding tanks for swimming), reaching a second beach and ending in a bay on anchor or entering a new port or marina (open and close the tanks to enter the port empty). That implies opening and closing the holding tanks at least 3 times a day, often with valves in weird locations.

Maybe your use case is different than typical.

When you pick up the boat, it will typically have empty tanks (or I will be annoyed with the charter base) and if you aren't silly using excess water, should be good for 3-4 days without messing with the valve at all.

Then when you do need to drain them, either:
- You go to a pump out and there is no valve with typical designs.
- If you are somewhere where overboard is allowed, you open the valve, wait 5-10min till it's empty and close the valve.

So most day's, you aren't using the valve at all and when you do, you only have to access it' once during the draining.
- For a 3 day charter, you may never touch it, having the base do the final empty.
- For a 7 day charter, you probably have to empty once.

You might add #3 to your other post: Those who winge about things never having designed, built or owned a big cruising boat and expect it to be like owning a house.

[Jaimesan]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Maybe your use case is different than typical.

When you pick up the boat, it will typically have empty tanks (or I will be annoyed with the charter base) and if you aren't silly using excess water, should be good for 3-4 days without messing with the valve at all.

Then when you do need to drain them, either:
- You go to a pump out and there is no valve with typical designs.
- If you are somewhere where overboard is allowed, you open the valve, wait 5-10min till it's empty and close the valve.

So most day's, you aren't using the valve at all and when you do, you only have to access it' once during the draining.
- For a 3 day charter, you may never touch it, having the base do the final empty.
- For a 7 day charter, you probably have to empty once.

You might add #3 to your other post: Those who winge about things never having designed, built or owned a big cruising boat and expect it to be like owning a house.

Valhalla, with all my respect, read before you write. I usually charter in the Med.

Charters arrive at ports or marinas on Friday afternoon, and are given to new owners on Saturday afternoon. Ports often do not have public toilets so the heads are used. Marinas usually have public toilets but people still use the heads. So, tanks are usually never empty when given to you. So, be annoyed with the charter base.

Nobody pumps holding tanks out in EU waters, it is always free discharge away from the shore as per the law.

If you have on board 10-12 persons (8 guests) who as typical customers do not care if they flush more than necessary the holding tanks get full quickly, I would say maximum in 2 days all 3 holding tanks are full and they start overflowing just below toerail height, a full brown waterfall down the hull in the middle of the pristine waters bay on plain view of the swimmers. I am talking from experience.
On top of that, often in charter yachts, holding tanks are not well maintained and have cavitation issues and the gauges were not even installed so boats decide to have a directly open head for nr 1 (pee) and two closed valves for nr 2 (poo). This makes you, as I wrote, open and close valves at least 2 times a day, every day. Again, from experience.

I am not whining, I am an architect myself and I fully understand the complexity of multidiscipline projects. I suspect it is a lack of will.

[dnight]

Hi, as many have pointed out it all comes down to cost. I know a number of designers who work between custom and production. Bill Dixon (Moody, Hylas, Johnson etc), Olivier Racoupeau (Amel, Beneteau, Fontaine Pajot etc), Rob Humphreys (Oyster, Elan, Southerly, Whitbreads etc). These need to be designed to a price point. These designers need to be able to compete for the tender package depending on what they are designing. Production boats need to be produced relatively cheaply. This means equipment that is easily installed in easy locations to install it. If their "better" design takes an extra 2 weeks of 10 people to build it, it is extra costs to the manufacturer. This may likely mean they lose the contract. If customers are willing to pay more, more time can be spent on this. Most "everyday" customers want it for the lowest price they can get it.

I am currently involved with a full custom motoryacht project with Humphreys Design. Fantastic people, great at what they do. But going full custom is a different kettle of fish. They have the funds from the Owner to spend an incredible amount of time designing these things, and we will get exactly what the Owner wants. It all boils down to cost.

Really looking forward to driving it though, bring on 2024....