Commercial boat design

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Jaimesan I still don't understand your complaint. I have been on thousands of production yachts and are yet to see a truely bad design. Everything is a compromise whether it's your boat, house or partner.
As for lack of design inertia that's just BS. Step on a 1970s production yacht and then compare it to the latest designs afloat now. They are world's apart.
To me it sounds like you have a beer budget with champagne tastes.
How about you design this wonder yacht and then sell the design. Its bound to make you way more than the chartering escapade.
Cheers

agree entirely

Most boats these days especially as they got bigger have better and better engineering access, even as customer demand has demanded more complex system

I was ona big CAT recently and engine "engine room" had fantastic access, from the top , and a world of space for system in each hull , typically under the beds

The OP is just "whinging" cause he has not advanced an alternative

Yachts are a compromise like cars and houses, there is a fixed amount of space and much is limited access, so you either ignore that space or use it and accept the limitations. IN most cases access to engineering systems is " adequate "

The OP actually needs to lay out an alternative vision for people to evaluate whether its possible or just a rant

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Jameson would not be the first to have such an industrial boat.

When we made our Serendipity 43 racing boat into a liveaboard we added no wall coverings or headliner and made no attempt to hide wires or pipes. We took care to have nice upholstery, good personal lighting, beautifully finished cabin sole and teak trim for our white walls, and in that way we created a very comfortable and homey boat.

But it is still very industrial

That was 1986

Id prefer that my yachts didnt look the inside if an industrial building or a submarine

Systems behind headliners, normally wires, rarely give any problems , my previous boat was 30 years old and the headliners never needed to be removed

my current boat has a GRP headliner inlaid with velcro vinyl cushioning panels , the only thing up there is simple wiring to the lights, the majority of the wiring runs in fully accessible ducts behind the high level cabinets , hence modifying it or getting at it is easy

like wise my holding tank is completely accessible in the deep locker, rudder systems are exposed in the lazarette, ( I can get my whole top body in through the hatch , I recently fitted a tiller arm for the new AP , with ease

pumps are under the rear bed, plenty of space to work on them , shower pump's are in a big accessible locker under the sink ( all exposed pipes in there)

The only issue was I couldn't remove a sewer pipe , as its trapped behind a glassed in moulding . It was capped and left

so unless you have specific solutions , I dont actually see what you are complaining about

Boats are NOT just machines, I live on mine 9 months a year, I want a reasonable design aesthetic , an interior that looks well and is calming and beautiful. I dont want to live in a warehouse

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Starcks design aesthetic isnt everyones cup of tea, but hes widely acknowledged and has a cult like following

so , beautiful , yes in the eyes of people that like that aesthetic

I was referring more to the functionality aspect and him not being known to have any boat and yacht related training or being known as an avid boater, even though, I have to be so honest that I have to admit I hate most of his stuff...

Btw. your Bavaria 36 is one of the few boats I'd had chosen out of their range, even though I am not a big fan of their wood and fabric choices at the time.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Franziska

I was referring more to the functionality aspect and him not being known to have any boat and yacht related training or being known as an avid boater, even though, I have to be so honest that I have to admit I hate most of his stuff...

famous designers ( like Johnny Ives etc) dont tend to be engineering people, they are contracted to add their aesthetic . The naval architects ARE experienced in boat design and will take that design and "wrap " a boat around it . This is similar to Cars , kitchen equipment , Apple, household furniture etc

Whether you or I like it or not is purely a subjective thing ( I like some of his work and not others ) , often he has been brought in to add a touch of "celebrity " to the design aesthetic

yachts are finely finished objects of wealth , especially higher end yachts and brands , often owners will have high end cars, houses etc . Their children will display elements of that wealth etc

This is the buyer sector a high end brand is targeting , people with money. People that want and like " the finer " things in life and spend a lot to get it

The whole super yacht industry is founded on it

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Around me in marinas most boats are anti fouled by third parties , rigged by third parties , engines maintained by third parties. Very little heavy duty diy is evident ( me and my neighbour are outliers )

Manufacturers know this hence boats are not primarily now being built with diy maintenance in mind.

( yes I mean local professionals , typically on site maintenance companies that look after all aspects of the boat. )

In the Med most marinas and boatyards frown on DIY.. some don't allow any work at all, others allow in water maintainence but ban diy on the hard..
Very few are okay with anything goes.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

In the Med most marinas and boatyards frown on DIY.. some don't allow any work at all, others allow in water maintainence but ban diy on the hard..
Very few are okay with anything goes.

Take Aktio hardstanding, near me around 1500 boats in two fields , full DIY and liveaboard facilitated

Very few people there doing any major DIY , its a tiny minority , you can walk in and see it

IN my marina, within the rules ( ie sand blasting in a dedicated area, environmental rules for stripped fouling ) full DIY is allowed , yet almost everyone, except oddballs like me, employ the trade to do the work, hence teh profusion of yacht trades in Lefkada

people don't simply have (a) time or (b) the technical understanding , to fix up boats, They pay people , nor more then few people do serious home DIY other then paint a few walls

I know in new marinas, the environmental rules are now making DIY very difficult where debris is generated, full protective gear is required , spill protection and mitigation etc and insurance to cover the work etc.

The DIY sailer is a dying breed

[boatman61]

Spain was more about labour protection for the Yards Marinheiros and local tradesmen.. and to cut down complaints to the HM about cowboy tradesmen from the UK and Ireland.

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

famous designers ( like Johnny Ives etc) dont tend to be engineering people, they are contracted to add their aesthetic . The naval architects ARE experienced in boat design and will take that design and "wrap " a boat around it . This is similar to Cars , kitchen equipment , Apple, household furniture etc

Whether you or I like it or not is purely a subjective thing ( I like some of his work and not others ) , often he has been brought in to add a touch of "celebrity " to the design aesthetic

yachts are finely finished objects of wealth , especially higher end yachts and brands , often owners will have high end cars, houses etc . Their children will display elements of that wealth etc

This is the buyer sector a high end brand is targeting , people with money. People that want and like " the finer " things in life and spend a lot to get it

The whole super yacht industry is founded on it

I have worked for many years in yacht and boat design on projects from high volume production boats all the way to Megayacht so, I am aware of the process, as you are likely too..

[Rumrace]

It’s called ROI return on investment.
If you can make more money in your profession than you can pretending you’re a diesel mechanic with years of diesel mechanic school yet you insist on doing you’re own diesel mechanic it’s a hobby.
I have faux teak I love dry brushing when oil varnish debates start.
I enjoy and love telling people my dentist looked like a total goon changing fielders and rebuilding a toilet. Was quiet revenge. One root canal he could buy 10 toilets installed but the dummy thinks he’s a plumber. He has a can of everything that says boat on it.
Having professionals do the work usually pays off. Fun to learn all the stuff but rather be sailing.
I’m truly a hypocrite when it comes to gas motors and surface props but it’s a hobby in a barn on a trailer not cluttering up a row of clean boats. My neighbours would be disgusted with it anyway.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Franziska

I have worked for many years in yacht and boat design on projects from high volume production boats all the way to Megayacht so, I am aware of the process, as you are likely too..

yes I am , and in other design/engineering fields as well , especially cars.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

It’s called ROI return on investment.
If you can make more money in your profession than you can pretending you’re a diesel mechanic with years of diesel mechanic school yet you insist on doing you’re own diesel mechanic it’s a hobby.
I have faux teak I love dry brushing when oil varnish debates start.
I enjoy and love telling people my dentist looked like a total goon changing fielders and rebuilding a toilet. Was quiet revenge. One root canal he could buy 10 toilets installed but the dummy thinks he’s a plumber. He has a can of everything that says boat on it.
Having professionals do the work usually pays off. Fun to learn all the stuff but rather be sailing.
I’m truly a hypocrite when it comes to gas motors and surface props but it’s a hobby in a barn on a trailer not cluttering up a row of clean boats. My neighbours would be disgusted with it anyway.

Lord Finchley tried to mend the Electric Light
Himself. It struck him dead: And serve him right!
It is the business of the wealthy man
To give employment to the artisan
Joseph Hilaire Pierre René Belloc

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

If you intend to charter you will generally want a modern boat with all mod cons. Customers are paying top dollar and expect to see modern fresh boats.

perfect opportunity to undercut the competition.

Also the pedigree of used boats can be suspect and superficial especially over 30 years. Interiors will look very dated and may be faded or generally jaded , customers will expect modern expansive swim platforms and so forth.

What is the point? Who are these "customers" anyway? From what I can tell they are members of the 1% who no one should be providing services for. Many of these people inherited all of their wealth and live a life of extreme excess to the detriment of everyone else.

My friend ran a charter, and it was only exceptionally wealthy people. One time one of the guests died from drinking too much and the other guests didnt care and were pissed that it ruined the day (another boat had to get the body) even though they continued the cruise to a few days after that.

The type of people who go on charters are generally the worst type of people on the planet: it is wrong to provide such charters. If someone takes a jet to get to the boat: they dont deserve to get on the boat.

The fact remains that modern boats are more then robust enough for many years of intensive self charter , often looking surprising resilient after many such years. Have a look inside a 5 year old Sunsail , you’ll generally find it in nice condition.

Where they motor 90% of the time and open the sails in 10 knots on a broad reach twice a year. Yes these crappy modern boats are dying younger and younger with each passing hurricane.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Large scale production boats have facilitated 1000s to realise their dreams and sail the world.

Maybe, but it would be a better world to sail in if every boat were not a production one. In some places, there are marinas with 200 boats and every boat is identical. What kind of world is that?

I read about beneteau rudder failures being common.... I've met people with all ranges of production boats, and the newer ones always have tons of issues that are due to the design. For example cracks in the mast on catana, broken dagger boards on seawind (from water force alone?!) and so forth.

Engineering a boat is really difficult and the new designs obviously have problems just like the latest version of anything. Making it both cheaper and lighter is very tempting. The older designs maybe were not perfect either but a fiberglass boat using wooden boat design is so over engineered it generally holds up, even if some of the wood is rotting or the fiberglass is delaminating in places. A full keel boat with inches thick of glass under it can run aground even bounce on rocks (for a while) and be ok. The newer boats do not survive the same abuse.

[Rumrace]

For many years I represented or imported many products from Europe mostly in lighting and door hardware.
Spain England and Greece I just plain gave up on. Spain had a product so well made so lovely you swooned but by the time you got delivery you were so disgusted with their lack of urgency you didn’t care.
Italy Germany France Norway Denmark Romania Poland all mean machines. Do exactly what they say.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

perfect opportunity to undercut the competition.

What is the point? Who are these "customers" anyway? From what I can tell they are members of the 1% who no one should be providing services for. Many of these people inherited all of their wealth and live a life of extreme excess to the detriment of everyone else.

My friend ran a charter, and it was only exceptionally wealthy people. One time one of the guests died from drinking too much and the other guests didnt care and were pissed that it ruined the day (another boat had to get the body) even though they continued the cruise to a few days after that.

The type of people who go on charters are generally the worst type of people on the planet: it is wrong to provide such charters. If someone takes a jet to get to the boat: they dont deserve to get on the boat.

Where they motor 90% of the time and open the sails in 10 knots on a broad reach twice a year. Yes these crappy modern boats are dying younger and younger with each passing hurricane.


Maybe, but it would be a better world to sail in if every boat were not a production one. In some places, there are marinas with 200 boats and every boat is identical. What kind of world is that?



I read about beneteau rudder failures being common.... I've met people with all ranges of production boats, and the newer ones always have tons of issues that are due to the design. For example cracks in the mast on catana, broken dagger boards on seawind (from water force alone?!) and so forth.

Engineering a boat is really difficult and the new designs obviously have problems just like the latest version of anything. Making it both cheaper and lighter is very tempting. The older designs maybe were not perfect either but a fiberglass boat using wooden boat design is so over engineered it generally holds up, even if some of the wood is rotting or the fiberglass is delaminating in places. A full keel boat with inches thick of glass under it can run aground even bounce on rocks (for a while) and be ok. The newer boats do not survive the same abuse.

Heavy is not strong and light is not weak , modern computer design and closed mould resin infusion is producing hulls far srtonger for a given weight then older hand laid stuff where the builder havent a clue

I read about beneteau rudder failures being common..

read again , beneteau make 1000s of boats , they are not experiencing rudder failure

The type of people who go on charters are generally the worst type of people on the planet: it is wrong to provide such charters. If someone takes a jet to get to the boat: they dont deserve to get on the boat

Ill not comment on what is an elitist and potentially apartheid style statement, only " good" people should be allowed to sail !!!!

perfect opportunity to undercut the competition.

What is the point? Who are these "customers" anyway? From what I can tell they are members of the 1% who no one should be providing services for. Many of these people inherited all of their wealth and live a life of extreme excess to the detriment of everyone else.

most Ive met are just hard working people out for a bit of fun on their two weeks a year holiday . They are paying big money and want a clean modern functional boat

Where they motor 90% of the time and open the sails in 10 knots on a broad reach twice a year. Yes these crappy modern boats are dying younger and younger with each passing hurricane.

Hurricanes always killed boats , now there are many more boats are more opportunity tio kill a few more, its has no correlation with boat design

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

He has a can of everything that says boat on it.

Ha ha,
Not trying to thread drift, but that line made my day.
I spent a couple of days working on one of those Tiawan Trawlers.
The owner had a locker full of at least a couple bottles of every type of cleaner imaginable for anything/everything you could think of.
I successfully fought off the temptation to switch around the contents.