Cockpit sizes of Tashiba, Tayana, Baba, Cabo Rico, Hans Christian

[UNCIVILIZED]

Guys, the FACT remains, that between 2 boats where all else is equal, the one with the crew without socks & belts will win. Period.
Handicap ratings are simply a tool by which to measure the relative speed of one design to another. Not the true speed of a boat, or actual speed differences.

Show me a heavy race car which consistently wins. Please

Sometimes I wonder why I flippin bother !!!!!!!

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Sailshabby

Re: Uncivilized - Google up 'Saraband' and 'TransPac 1988.' (If it's a decent hit, there will also be photos of the whining "racing boat" owners!)

1988??

You had to reach back to 1988? Some progress has been made since 1988 in yacht design.

[Sailshabby]

Saving you the trouble, my point was any boat can be made to sail faster, given enough thought.

[zboss]

All boats are a tradeoff. New boats have bigger cockpits and open transoms, which is really nice.

I like our CR cockpit but I sometimes feel that it would be better without the big binnacle in the way when we have guests over for dinner. I suppose that is true for any older design.

Our boat is very comfortable and quiet at night even in most heavy weather. We both regularly sleep in the cockpit during overnights and napping during the day.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by zboss

All boats are a tradeoff. New boats have bigger cockpits and open transoms, which is really nice.

I like our CR cockpit but I sometimes feel that it would be better without the big binnacle in the way when we have guests over for dinner. I suppose that is true for any older design.

Our boat is very comfortable and quiet at night even in most heavy weather. We both regularly sleep in the cockpit during overnights and napping during the day.

This is one of the things I really appreciate about having a tiller instead of a wheel/binnacle. Our Rafiki has the typical smallish cockpit found on ocean-going boats of our vintage and design. But with the tiller, I can lift it out of the way when at anchor, opening up the whole (albeit still small) space.

[rbk]

A nice friendly Cat mono race

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SVsXZwM1tr8

[buzzstar]

I have heard that we, the posters on this forum, as a group, do become distracted and stay from the issue raised by the OP. Here, we seem to be divided between and among the racers and the cruisers, and the hybrids of the two. Anyway, I am suggesting that each of us return to the original post, and see if we have any actual information to add that might be useful to the OP. At this point we seem to be more intent on blasting away at each other's opposing personal opinions and attempting to invoke snippets from known, but divergent, experts in support.

[oregonian]

Hello again OCTAVIOUS, I hope you are still following your thread. You stated that you would like a boat that “can sail in 10 - 12 knots of wind”. There has been Too much misinformation on this subject, on this thread, so I would like to clarify that info. Every boat that you mentioned plus all the boats referenced previously, can sail in 5 knots of wind. The comment by UNCIVILIZED that “most of which can’t hit hull speed until it’s blowing in excess of 20kts”, is both ridiculous and irresponsible. BUT there is an explanation. Most cruising oriented boats are just cruising. They are observed sailing slowly because the boat owner is not trying or perhaps not prepared to sail faster. perhaps he has a jib up when a Genoa is more appropriate. Perhaps he has chosen to put four 8D batteries on his boat because he wants to have more DC power for whatever reason. etc, etc, etc,. These are owner choices. The boat, if prepared and sailed, equally to a similar sized Race boat will be VERY NEARLY the same speed. For a 35’ boat, the difference in speed, when both boats are loaded and crossing an ocean will be roughly 1/4k, or 6 miles a day.
This speed thing is often referenced to PHRF ratings, which are in seconds per mile. The following example is only one of about 1000: A Ranger 33 rates about 155. A Westsail 32 rates 216. A very large difference of over 60 seconds per mile. Under normal racing conditions, in EMPTY boats, the Ranger will usually, but not always, beat the Westsail. When these same two boats are loaded for cruising or entered in a very long race requiring lots of stuff aboard, then the Westsail will usually, but not always, beat the Ranger. The fact is that the lighter boat is more handicapped by the loading than the heavier boat. The two different boats do not sail “proportionately” to their PHRF numbers. One of the reasons is simply because the shape of the hull for a light boat is not the same shape for a heavy boat. The light weight boat cannot change its shape just because its carrying 3000 extra pounds.
In supporting an argument, it was stated “show me a heavy race car which consistently wins races”. Well! Soap Box Derby cars are restricted in their weight because Heavier is faster.
Thanks for listening, Please get back to us when you make a decision

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by oregonian

Hello again OCTAVIOUS, I hope you are still following your thread. You stated that you would like a boat that “can sail in 10 - 12 knots of wind”. There has been Too much misinformation on this subject, on this thread, so I would like to clarify that info. Every boat that you mentioned plus all the boats referenced previously, can sail in 5 knots of wind. The comment by UNCIVILIZED that “most of which can’t hit hull speed until it’s blowing in excess of 20kts”, is both ridiculous and irresponsible. BUT there is an explanation. Most cruising oriented boats are just cruising. They are observed sailing slowly because the boat owner is not trying or perhaps not prepared to sail faster. perhaps he has a jib up when a Genoa is more appropriate. Perhaps he has chosen to put four 8D batteries on his boat because he wants to have more DC power for whatever reason. etc, etc, etc,. These are owner choices. The boat, if prepared and sailed, equally to a similar sized Race boat will be VERY NEARLY the same speed. For a 35’ boat, the difference in speed, when both boats are loaded and crossing an ocean will be roughly 1/4k, or 6 miles a day.
This speed thing is often referenced to PHRF ratings, which are in seconds per mile. The following example is only one of about 1000: A Ranger 33 rates about 155. A Westsail 32 rates 216. A very large difference of over 60 seconds per mile. Under normal racing conditions, in EMPTY boats, the Ranger will usually, but not always, beat the Westsail. When these same two boats are loaded for cruising or entered in a very long race requiring lots of stuff aboard, then the Westsail will usually, but not always, beat the Ranger. The fact is that the lighter boat is more handicapped by the loading than the heavier boat. The two different boats do not sail “proportionately” to their PHRF numbers. One of the reasons is simply because the shape of the hull for a light boat is not the same shape for a heavy boat. The light weight boat cannot change its shape just because its carrying 3000 extra pounds.
In supporting an argument, it was stated “show me a heavy race car which consistently wins races”. Well! Soap Box Derby cars are restricted in their weight because Heavier is faster.
Thanks for listening, Please get back to us when you make a decision

Complete total nonsense. Sorry, but hull shape, sail design, keel design and shape, weight, rig design all make huge differences.

You're basically in denial of the laws of physics, all boats are not created equal with the only difference being weight. Example: two identical boats, one with new high tech sails, the other with old baggy dacron sails. The boat with the old Dacron sails will get it's butt kicked by a significant margin in a race against the one with new sails.

Have you ever sailed?

[rbk]

Personally OCTAVIOUS, I'd be looking for online owners groups for each of your forementioned boats where you are required to own one of said boats. You'll get a truly objective answers pro's and con's without all the BS that gets thrown around on these open forums. You'll have to apply for membership (this keeps these a--holes out) but is far better than the crap getting pushed here by certain members. I've avoided this site for many years as well as other like SA for just this fact. All boats mentioned should have plenty of room to stretch out in the cockpit and if you put cloth up and there's wind all above boats will sail, some better than others some slightly faster some slightly slower, some will point slightly higher some won't, but we're talking 1/4 knts and a handful of degrees.

[robert sailor]

Please use some common sense when discussing sailing abilities. There is not a Westsail 32 made that will sail with a race boat in any weather and the lighter the air the bigger the difference. The Westsail has lots of wetted surface so lots of drag in light air plus it's sail area to displacement ratio is very low compared to a racing yacht. Even a real good cruiser racer could probably sail at close to double the speed of a WS32 in light air conditions. Going to weather the WS32 points like a straw bale compared to a racer, not even in the same ballpark.
Ok with all that said, over the years I have met many owners of WS32's and similar designs that absolutely loved their boats and sailed them all over the world. They are very roomy for their size and have lots of good storage areas. They are by design very strong and can be taken almost anywhere if they are in excellent condition so even today for many cruisers they make a good choice if you love that type of boat.

[GWB]

That is incorrect actually. The speeds will be much closer together in light air, and further apart in heavier air, assuming you are talking about modern race boats.

You are showing your ignorance and it is becoming clear that you don't know what you are talking about

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Please use some common sense when discussing sailing abilities. There is not a Westsail 32 made that will sail with a race boat in any weather and the lighter the air the bigger the difference. The Westsail has lots of wetted surface so lots of drag in light air plus it's sail area to displacement ratio is very low compared to a racing yacht. Even a real good cruiser racer could probably sail at close to double the speed of a WS32 in light air conditions. Going to weather the WS32 points like a straw bale compared to a racer, not even in the same ballpark.
Ok with all that said, over the years I have met many owners of WS32's and similar designs that absolutely loved their boats and sailed them all over the world. They are very roomy for their size and have lots of good storage areas. They are by design very strong and can be taken almost anywhere if they are in excellent condition so even today for many cruisers they make a good choice if you love that type of boat.

[Cheechako]

Once you have enough wind to drive hull speed... it's all about waterline length. Westsail or Ranger. Going to weather the race boat wins as it points higher. In the trade winds though, not going to weather, the longer waterline wins. (assuming you neglect surfing the hull etc) With enough wind the Ranger doesn't care if it's overloaded... in fact may have a longer waterline when overloaded. Acceleration to hull speed does matter is less than adequate wind though.

[GWB]

Westsail 32 waterline length - 27.5'
Ranger 33 waterline length - 26.25'

If the Ranger 33 is loaded, it will not surf as well as it could. The hull shape is designed with surfing in mind. Do you understand now?

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Once you have enough wind to drive hull speed... it's all about waterline length. Westsail or Ranger. Going to weather the race boat wins as it points higher. In the trade winds though, not going to weather, the longer waterline wins. (assuming you neglect surfing the hull etc) With enough wind the Ranger doesn't care if it's overloaded... in fact may have a longer waterline when overloaded. Acceleration to hull speed does matter is less than adequate wind though.

[Elie]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Once you have enough wind to drive hull speed... it's all about waterline length. Westsail or Ranger. Going to weather the race boat wins as it points higher. In the trade winds though, not going to weather, the longer waterline wins. (assuming you neglect surfing the hull etc) With enough wind the Ranger doesn't care if it's overloaded... in fact may have a longer waterline when overloaded. Acceleration to hull speed does matter is less than adequate wind though.

Maybe this need a bit of clarification. Displacement has a huge impact on the speed limit that a boat can reach. The way I see it, in theory, a boat reach its hull speed when the wave it generate is equal to the water length. That only the wave length, but the depth of this wave is proportionate to the actual displacement. So a lighter boat will create a shallower wave of equal length, and will tend to 'climbe' on its wave quicker than an heavier displacment hull. Once on the wave, it starts surfing and goeing much faster. My sailoat has a theorical hull speed of 8.6 knts, but quite often, with some wave action, on a reach it goes way over 10 knts. In one instance, I have made 225 miles in 24 hours, in serious breeze and waves... So naval architecture has made big progress in recents years, and its reflect on the boat performances.