Choosing between Beneteau and Dufour

[GTom]

Originally Posted by Elie

You might be right about the usage most boats gets. But still, glued hull deck joint is as good as the first skin of fiberglass attachment to the next immediate layer. And self tapping screws can't do the job of trough bolted job, far from it. It is assured that some day in time leaks will develop, and fixing them is almost impossible. I know someone that owns a Morgan OI 41, where deck is attached with screws, and it leaks like a sieve. No cost effective repair is possible.
So It seems to me that some new boats builts with cost cutting shortcuts are not made to sustain the effect of cold weather on a craddle with the mast stepped, as we do nowaday in northen climes, and have a limited capacity to sustain even small groundings without major repairs. In my opinion, the Dufour, Grand Soleil, Xboats, or Swans are much better suited for a long life without big problems.

That means while we keep seeing 50+year old boats, today's Bene's, Jeanneau's, etc will become a pile of GF trash I suppose

Btw Elans are at least partially bolted.

[Elie]

Originally Posted by Sailer1546

So cold weather will ruin the glue?

No, this has nothing to do with the glue, funny guy... Cold weather for a boat standing on its craddle with his mast up, imparts lots of movements and torsions into the hull deck joint, in big winter winds. Much more then for a boat passing all year long in water that damnpeds the forces. Plus the freezing-thawing cycles adds its lot of movements in different materials lile fiberglass, screws, rigging, etc. that don't have the same elongation coefficients. And as soon as minute water gets into the joints, trouble starts. In upstate New york it is a well known fact. And now marinas have started to offer in the water storage of boat, on lake Champlain. With bublers, to keep water from freezing, it is a a much better solution in such tough climate for boats. I presume that in northern Europe, it would be about the same thing.

[Elie]

Originally Posted by GTom

That means while we keep seeing 50+year old boats, today's Bene's, Jeanneau's, etc will become a pile of GF trash I suppose

Btw Elans are at least partially bolted.

Beneteau always bolted its hull-deck joint until recently. So this remarks pertains only to new or recents Beneteau, when competition forced in my opinion to save. By the way, it is not the only place where labor savings have been made. Just to remind that the structural grid is also glued to the bottom of the hull. Any serious grounding creates structural havoc difficult to fix, to say the list. And sometimes it goes unoticed for long time until de boat his serious offshore gale, and then...

[Sailer1546]

Is there a way to rework the hull to bolt the hull-deck joint?

[Elie]

Originally Posted by Sailer1546

Is there a way to rework the hull to bolt the hull-deck joint?

Quite difficult in my opinion. First, the hull deck joint is covered by a teak plank on the deck,that serves also as a nice rail on the edge of the decks. Destructive works required to remove it!! And I think that the joint is hard to reach without dismantling the head liner, and a lots of cabinetry inside the yacht. I don't believe that is practical solution and essentialy you have to live with what is done at the factory, like most mass produced cars, yachts or washing machines, Iphones, etc....
I shall add also that the new Beneteaus design and ergonomy are absolutly smashing. That is also true for many other modern sailing yachts including the Dufour.

[GTom]

Originally Posted by Elie

I shall add also that the new Beneteaus design and ergonomy are absolutly smashing. That is also true for many other modern sailing yachts including the Dufour.

Yeah, design is cool, but the fact, that a 300k€/$ yacht go 0$ in 20years while 50+years old units from previous generations keep doing circumnavigations, roaring 40's, Sydney-Hobart's, etc sounds intriguing.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Sailer1546

Is there a way to rework the hull to bolt the hull-deck joint?

Where there is a will there is a way.

Just why do it?

Why not get a boat WITHOUT such problems.

If a relatively new boat has a hull/deck problem, apparently the boat has been put to use that she was not designed for.

Get a problem-less boat.

My 2 cents.

https://lets3njoylife.files.wordpres...57340035_n.jpg

b.

[Elie]

Originally Posted by GTom

Yeah, design is cool, but the fact, that a 300k€/$ yacht go 0$ in 20years while 50+years old units from previous generations keep doing circumnavigations, roaring 40's, Sydney-Hobart's, etc sounds intriguing.

Saying that the value would go to $0.0 in 20 years is a bit of an exageration. Most of these boats in fact navigate in nice weather, live in marinas most of the time, and are hardly subjected to rough seas far offshore in realy bad weaher. The builders of such mass produced yachts in fact know very well these facts, and factor this in their scantlings. In other terms, these yachts are built well enough for the average weekend sailors. And keep in mind that nowadays, boats are becoming like cars, where value decrease quickly and repairability mainly an insurance problem. Design changes fast and obsolescence is in my opinion a parameter built in. Like cars...

[GTom]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Get a problem-less boat. ...
b.

I agree with you in the principle but choosing a boat is a very complex question. One might like the design and comfort of a particular production boat, or gets an ex-charter boat cheap.

The important part is to avoid buying a pig in a poke, attractive price at a relatively "young age" and being forced to scrap it for nothing in <5years instead of the 15-20years planned.

Originally Posted by Elie

Saying that the value would go to $0.0 in 20 years is a bit of an exageration. Most of these boats in fact navigate in nice weather, live in marinas most of the time, and are hardly subjected to rough seas far offshore in realy bad weaher. The builders of such mass produced yachts in fact know very well these facts, and factor this in their scantlings. In other terms, these yachts are built well enough for the average weekend sailors. And keep in mind that nowadays, boats are becoming like cars, where value decrease quickly and repairability mainly an insurance problem. Design changes fast and obsolescence is in my opinion a parameter built in. Like cars...

No wonder why charter companies don't take used boats, even though brand new boats tend to have issues.
Car-analogy: sad to hear that, fortunately there are some exceptions, like Boreal (yes, brand new and yes, seaworthy from pole to pole - and yes, expensive). Market is always supply and demand. For cars it's clear, most owners have neither clue nor willingness to even replace a bulb. Yachting might be a bit different, you need to have some repair skills, can't just call the "yellow angels" in the middle of the Atlantic to fix a leak...

[Sailer1546]

It seems like you have to make a compromise because there are boats with good and durable hulls but their design and looks just dont compare to benes, dufours jenneaus whatever else...

[GTom]

Originally Posted by Sailer1546

It seems like you have to make a compromise because there are boats with good and durable hulls but their design and looks just dont compare to benes, dufours jenneaus whatever else...

Yes, this is my feeling. At the same seaworthyness level you have price, design and longevity (under YOUR hands, it doesn't help that the boat was fine for 40years before). You can choose two...

[AKA-None]

Hmmm if you want honest information then you need to know what the conditions are or the information you get may be meaningless for your needs. E.g. If my needs are what's cheaper and you apply your needs to the solution then the answer will not help. What's so hard about that?

[SV Bacchus]

Originally Posted by Beavereater

This may be out of order, but maybe a little De-caf or a dog to kick might make some folks a little less irritable. IMHO

Mr. Beavereater I'm surprised you didn't recommend more beaver in the diet!

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Sailer1546

It seems like you have to make a compromise because there are boats with good and durable hulls but their design and looks just dont compare to benes, dufours jenneaus whatever else...

No question that you make a good point. Marketing is the key in today's market, it's about the look and feel...larger heads with walk in showers, super sized galleys and huge cockpits are the rage these days. The average buyer wants to believe he can have it all, great looking product built to a high level of quality at a low price. Builders know their buyers and design their product to appeal to both the price point (most important) and finally build quality. We all like to BS ourselves at times but we can't avoid the fact that high quality doesn't come with lowest price. That's not to say that the lowest cost boat isn't good enough for the intended use because in most cases it generally is. No use building high quality boats that will spend most of their life in marinas, seems to me that the high production builders have it all figured out, hats off to them.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Sailer1546

Is there a way to rework the hull to bolt the hull-deck joint?

Just mho, but I think it would not be practical to make all the holes in the liner to install through-bolting for the entire hull to deck joint. You'd have to remove furniture, and be left with a liner with a zillion little doorways.

Somewhere in the archives here, a knowledgeable poster called <<minaret>>has written about what is necessary to effect repairs in the liner built boats. Unless one has all the skills one's self, mainly it is cost prohibitive. Try a CF Google Custom Search including his name, and you may be able to find it.

Ann