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Old 21-01-2021, 13:28   #31
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Re: Catalina 315 Question

My Catalina has a wing keel. It draws 4 1/2 feet. The Com-pac draws 3 1/2 feet. Lake St. Clair, where I keep my boat is quite shallow, so a shallow draft is an important advantage here. I can tell you that the Catalina points quite a bit better than the Com-pac. If my wind instrument is to be believed, then I can sail as close as 30 degrees true wind on the Catalina. One reason that the Com-pac is so good in bad weather is directly related to its less than stellar pointing ability. She tends to slide sideways.

The Catalina also is available with a 6 1/2 foot fin keel which I imagine would perform better than the wing keel. However, I recall reading somewhere in an article that the author felt that it did not make too much difference in pointing ability. Who knows, everyone has an opinion. Interesting thing about a wing keel is that it will draw more as you heel over. A little bit of visualization here would help. So a wing keel tends to point better than one would expect given the draft of the boat.

I have read that a wing keel also tends to imbed itself in the bottom, if you do run aground. So you cannot just kedge it off. In sum, the fin keel is 400 lbs lighter, easier to rescue from running aground and less expensive than the wing keel. Availability is also a factor. Every Catalina 315 I have seen advertised for sail has a wing keel.

As for trailering, both boats are too big for that. When it comes to boats, there is always a trade off.
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Old 21-01-2021, 14:00   #32
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Re: Catalina 315 Question

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Originally Posted by stephen_i_w View Post
Interesting thing about a wing keel is that it will draw more as you heel over. A little bit of visualization here would help. So a wing keel tends to point better than one would expect given the draft of the boat.
I think you explained very clearly - as the boat heels more, the wing becomes more vertical to the surface of Earth. Therefore, it must point even better heeling. Also the wing might be increasing the speed tad bit, as the fins on the new passenger planes do. It also provides less draft, so you certainly made the right decision for yourself.
I think the pointing issue shouldn't be considered that much of an 'issue' for me at the end of the day. I think at this point, some hands on experience will be necessary for me to make a final verdict. My brain is full of zig-zags, I guess pointing wouldn't be a huge concern for me. Lots of personal choice and compremise.
TY
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Old 21-01-2021, 21:19   #33
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Re: Catalina 315 Question

Quote:
I think you explained very clearly - as the boat heels more, the wing becomes more vertical to the surface of Earth. Therefore, it must point even better heeling.
I think that there are two fallacies in the above:

First, depending on the hull shape, as the boat heels the tip of the wing may briefly get deeper, but as the heel angle increases, this will go away because the whole keel gets closer to the surface... think about the extreme condition with 90 deg of heel. At that point the whole keel is near to the surface!

Secondly, your assumption about "pointing better when heeling" isn't true either. The lift generated by the keel (whch is what keeps the boat from sliding sideways) becomes more vertical in direction as the boat heels, and the resultant force to windward decreases and leeway increases.

The wing does make an endplate to the keel and that does have some benefit in drag reduction, and the added mass at the tip increases the righting moment over a conventional keel of the same weight and draft. These are indeed benefits, and if shoal draft is of paramount importance a wing keel may be a good choice... but it will never perform as well as a conventional keel of deeper draft.

There was a brief flurry of wing keeled boats after the success of the Aussie AC boat, but soon enough serious performance boats reverted to some form of torpedo shaped bulb at the bottom of the fin, not wings... and nowadays a good many production boats have them as well.

Jim

PS The claim of sailing at 30 degrees from the true wind is very hard to believe... that is better than high performance race boats do, and would result in tacking angles of around 60 degrees. I would bet that the Catalina with or without wing keel can't do much better than 90 degrees even in ideal conditions (not counting leeway which would make it worse)... more likely it would be around 100 to 105 degrees in practice.

Perhaps he meant apparent wind... and even then it's optimistic!
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Old 21-01-2021, 22:43   #34
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Re: Catalina 315 Question

This is just my opinion.
I'm sure the Catalina 315 is a great boat in many ways and correctly equipt, upgraded and with a prudent sailor with experience it could go anywhere.
But, you are a new, inexperienced sailor who has never owned a boat and pretty much doesnt know it's systems or at least never worked on them.
I think it would be very foolish to buy the boat new.
With your budget you could buy a wonderful used much larger and better equipt boat.
I'm going on year 8 with a used 41' Hunter now after owning 3 others, (25', 27', 34').
It takes many years before you've personally worked on or checked out or even used every mechanical and electrical system on that boat. You really should know how to work on any problem that will will occur, I know.
Buy a decent cheaper used boat, learn a lot. I don't believe in the first and last boat thing. Save your big money for when you know what you really want, need and what to look for in the condition and quality of a specific boat.
Just don't think I'd buy it new is my 2 cents here.
Greg
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Old 21-01-2021, 23:15   #35
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Re: Catalina 315 Question

Hi Full,

I too am shopping for my first boat. I got real close a couple of times... Went to have a look with money in my pocket. Right now I'm looking for an older 22'-25' boat as a lake-worthy learner boat, and in 1.5 yrs when I retire I plan on buying a 30'-40' boat to go cruising in. I'm looking at a lot of Catalina 22's right now as my learner boat.

Some advice I've gotten in this forum which I think is really good is to join a local sailing club and get involved. You can sail a lot of different boats and get a lot of great experience. That is what I plan to do as soon as it warms up a little in North Texas.

I believe you mentioned earlier that you've got a year or two before you make a purchase. You can sail on a lot of boats in 2 years

Hope it helps.
James
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Old 21-01-2021, 23:28   #36
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Re: Catalina 315 Question

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Originally Posted by Yihang View Post
If you are relying on a CE rating to give you confidence in the open ocean then you really shouldn't be out there.

If I were you I wouldn't be thinking about buying boat at all right now. Go get some experience and all these questions will answer themselves.

I hate to say it but if you have 159k to spend on a boat, then just go charter some boats and make all your mistakes on someone else boat. Seawind, oceanis and catalinas are all readily available in charters.

If you were responsible I would take some lessons before chartering but it seems a lot of charter outfits don't require any experience at all. So i guess that's their own fault.
I'd like to hop on this train. You might consider investing a fraction of your budget into getting out and sailing a few different kinds of boats. There's a place in Maryland that charters a dozen different kinds of cruisers (including an IP 349!) at pricey rates, but probably less than buying, outfitting, finding a port for, and realizing you don't like your new IP349.

Cheaper alternative: Join a school/club.

I'm in a club that has a couple dozen cruisers in the 33'-40'. I sailed their smaller boats and got certified to go big but some members stick with the 30-foot membership and sail Tartans, Sabres, and smaller Bennies (I wish they had a Catalina for comparison). The annual cost of the club is less than the cost of keeping a boat here for a summer. The club does the repairs, makes sure equipment is maintained and replaces worn or defective parts.

As a result, for less than the annual cost of owning a sailboat, I get to sail 12 different kinds of sailboat. It's been useful: I liked the self-tacking Hanses for shorthanded sailing, until I realized what a drag it is to sail downwind with that jib. I liked the Bennies because they are fast and comfy and the big genoa was great for all points of sail. But then I discovered that the Bavarias, though older, are much sturdier in a seaway, and you don't need to reef them at 15 knots. Then I sailed the brand new Jenneaus, which are set up with cool little touches that make it easy for the helms person to control everything, and realized that I don't want to buy an old used boat.

I'm still shopping, but each sail on each one of those boats has taught me something about sailing them, and is helping me build a better idea of what I want out of my dream boat.

And who I am as a sailor.

That last one is the most important thing. I'd rather play around with trim and sail in circles and drink margaritas in the bar by the harbor at night than go across the ocean. I'll probably gunk hole for the rest of my silly existence. I'm a coastal cruiser who likes sailing in foul weather. Somewhere that boat is out there.

BTW: I consider the trip from Florida to the Bahamas to be "open sea," Non? Maybe a short stretch of "open sea," but your Force 8 in there is making you 18-25' waves, non?

See? That's who I am as a sailor. Some of the folks on this forum will tell you that's milk run across the harbor.
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Old 22-01-2021, 04:11   #37
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Re: Catalina 315 Question

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Originally Posted by Full View Post
by the bye, pls, do tell me who exactly 'us' is.
The "us" is the Forum, of course.

When Trente (which means "30 feet" in French, by the way) and Zen and Jim are answering your questions so superbly, it means those Forum Members reading from the sidelines don't have to say anything...

LittleWing77
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Old 22-01-2021, 07:41   #38
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Re: Catalina 315 Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
First, depending on the hull shape, as the boat heels the tip of the wing may briefly get deeper, but as the heel angle increases, this will go away because the whole keel gets closer to the surface... think about the extreme condition with 90 deg of heel. At that point the whole keel is near to the surface!

Secondly, your assumption about "pointing better when heeling" isn't true either. The lift generated by the keel (whch is what keeps the boat from sliding sideways) becomes more vertical in direction as the boat heels, and the resultant force to windward decreases and leeway increases.

The wing does make an endplate to the keel and that does have some benefit in drag reduction, and the added mass at the tip increases the righting moment over a conventional keel of the same weight and draft. These are indeed benefits, and if shoal draft is of paramount importance a wing keel may be a good choice... but it will never perform as well as a conventional keel of deeper draft.

There was a brief flurry of wing keeled boats after the success of the Aussie AC boat, but soon enough serious performance boats reverted to some form of torpedo shaped bulb at the bottom of the fin, not wings... and nowadays a good many production boats have them as well.
Answers to...
1st paragraph: That is not what I exactly meant. The wing at the tip becomes a bit vertical as the boat heels. The more heeling, more vertical stand - again, just the wing at the tip.
2nd paragraph: I was talking about the 'wing' part only.
3rd paragraph: I did not say wing keels perform better than fin keels.
4th paragraph: I had not mentioned the Aussie AC during any conversation in my life before; I've just learned about it.
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Old 22-01-2021, 07:43   #39
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Re: Catalina 315 Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windpilot View Post
This is just my opinion.
I'm sure the Catalina 315 is a great boat in many ways and correctly equipt, upgraded and with a prudent sailor with experience it could go anywhere.
But, you are a new, inexperienced sailor who has never owned a boat and pretty much doesnt know it's systems or at least never worked on them.
I think it would be very foolish to buy the boat new.
With your budget you could buy a wonderful used much larger and better equipt boat.
I'm going on year 8 with a used 41' Hunter now after owning 3 others, (25', 27', 34').
It takes many years before you've personally worked on or checked out or even used every mechanical and electrical system on that boat. You really should know how to work on any problem that will will occur, I know.
Buy a decent cheaper used boat, learn a lot. I don't believe in the first and last boat thing. Save your big money for when you know what you really want, need and what to look for in the condition and quality of a specific boat.
Just don't think I'd buy it new is my 2 cents here.
Greg
I'm starting with a Catalina 22.
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Old 22-01-2021, 07:45   #40
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Re: Catalina 315 Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesiv1 View Post
Hi Full,

I too am shopping for my first boat. I got real close a couple of times... Went to have a look with money in my pocket. Right now I'm looking for an older 22'-25' boat as a lake-worthy learner boat, and in 1.5 yrs when I retire I plan on buying a 30'-40' boat to go cruising in. I'm looking at a lot of Catalina 22's right now as my learner boat.

Some advice I've gotten in this forum which I think is really good is to join a local sailing club and get involved. You can sail a lot of different boats and get a lot of great experience. That is what I plan to do as soon as it warms up a little in North Texas.

I believe you mentioned earlier that you've got a year or two before you make a purchase. You can sail on a lot of boats in 2 years

Hope it helps.
James
I'm also heading to a Cat22.
I'm in MO these days, closest dinghy sailing spot is hours away.
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Old 22-01-2021, 07:49   #41
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Re: Catalina 315 Question

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Originally Posted by DMF Sailing View Post
I'd like to hop on this train. You might consider investing a fraction of your budget into getting out and sailing a few different kinds of boats. There's a place in Maryland that charters a dozen different kinds of cruisers (including an IP 349!) at pricey rates, but probably less than buying, outfitting, finding a port for, and realizing you don't like your new IP349.

Cheaper alternative: Join a school/club.

I'm in a club that has a couple dozen cruisers in the 33'-40'. I sailed their smaller boats and got certified to go big but some members stick with the 30-foot membership and sail Tartans, Sabres, and smaller Bennies (I wish they had a Catalina for comparison). The annual cost of the club is less than the cost of keeping a boat here for a summer. The club does the repairs, makes sure equipment is maintained and replaces worn or defective parts.

As a result, for less than the annual cost of owning a sailboat, I get to sail 12 different kinds of sailboat. It's been useful: I liked the self-tacking Hanses for shorthanded sailing, until I realized what a drag it is to sail downwind with that jib. I liked the Bennies because they are fast and comfy and the big genoa was great for all points of sail. But then I discovered that the Bavarias, though older, are much sturdier in a seaway, and you don't need to reef them at 15 knots. Then I sailed the brand new Jenneaus, which are set up with cool little touches that make it easy for the helms person to control everything, and realized that I don't want to buy an old used boat.

I'm still shopping, but each sail on each one of those boats has taught me something about sailing them, and is helping me build a better idea of what I want out of my dream boat.

And who I am as a sailor.

That last one is the most important thing. I'd rather play around with trim and sail in circles and drink margaritas in the bar by the harbor at night than go across the ocean. I'll probably gunk hole for the rest of my silly existence. I'm a coastal cruiser who likes sailing in foul weather. Somewhere that boat is out there.

BTW: I consider the trip from Florida to the Bahamas to be "open sea," Non? Maybe a short stretch of "open sea," but your Force 8 in there is making you 18-25' waves, non?

See? That's who I am as a sailor. Some of the folks on this forum will tell you that's milk run across the harbor.
I've decided to start with a used Catalina 22.
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Old 22-01-2021, 07:56   #42
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Re: Catalina 315 Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleWing77 View Post
The "us" is the Forum, of course.

When Trente (which means "30 feet" in French, by the way) and Zen and Jim are answering your questions so superbly, it means those Forum Members reading from the sidelines don't have to say anything...

LittleWing77
the past few secs of my life were such a waste!?
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Old 22-01-2021, 10:19   #43
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Re: Catalina 315 Question

When I was shopping for my recent sailboat, my original plan was to purchase a Beneteau in the 30 to 35 foot range, made after the year 2000. Almost all the boats I saw at that time were basically junk. This is not a criticism of Beneteau sailboats, but rather a reflection on the scarcity of available boats.

I recall one sailboat who's engine hour meter was broken. The boat broker felt that my concern about this fact was totally unwarranted. This boat also had a 2 inch hole, covered by duct tape, in the fiber glass of the companion way. Another boat, which I had traveled 70 miles to see, had obviously been on fire and likely was the victim of a lightning strike. The plastic on the helm instruments was clearly melted and the Bimini was unavailable for inspection. The Broker told me that I better move fast, since he was certain the boat would be sold within a week. Sure?

My favorite shopping experience was for a boat that was parked in front of the owner's water front home. It did not look well maintained. When we motored out onto the Detroit river there was a terrible banging followed by a complete loss of motor power to the boat. I suggested to the owner that it would be wise to put down an anchor to prevent us from crashing into a bridge that was about 1000 feet down river. He did that and after an hour we were towed back to his dock. The prop-shaft had gotten detached from the transmission.

After seeing so many unfortunate boats, I decided to explore getting a new boat. This also turned out to be less than an ideal situation. The advertised "base price" of a sailboat has little relation to the actual sail away price of the boat. A boat with a base price of $135,000 can easily cost over $200,000 before tax. This makes shopping for one, difficult. My favorite experience here was the Defour dealer who wanted me to fly to the Annapolis boat show to meet him. But, unfortunately the boat I was interested in would not be there. Really? Really?

Happily, I do like the boat I ended up with. Most people I know do. I know a lot of boat owners and very few of them regret their choice. The ones that do regret it, usually did not have a realistic picture of boat ownership in the first place.

So the truth is, you are not going to be able to test out many boats to see if they fit you. Most boat owners will simply not just let you take their boat out for a trial. You will find that most boats you shop for will be unsuitable and that buying a new boat is a trauma. Basically, you are buying a pig in a poke.

So shop for a boat, find one that mostly suits what you think you will do with it. That will likely change as you go. Look for one in great condition. Avoid "project boats" like the plague. Always, make sure to get a good survey. Enjoy!
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Old 22-01-2021, 12:57   #44
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Re: Catalina 315 Question

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Originally Posted by stephen_i_w View Post
The Broker told me that I better....
A boat with a base price of $135,000 can easily cost over $200,000 before tax....
The Defour dealer who wanted me to fly to the Annapolis boat show to meet him. But, unfortunately the boat I was interested in would not be there....
Happily, I do like the boat I ended up with. Most people I know do. I know a lot of boat owners and very few of them regret their choice....
Avoid "project boats" like the plague....
Wow, this was the most helpful of all the replies I've received here. There are a few more good advices, but this one is the top one due to the fact that it was given keeping my experience level in mind. Thank you, Stephen. I have a little hands on sailing time on various dingies and some knowledge in theory. In the hands of a seasoned broker, I'll become homeless in only a couple of weeks!?
There is no way I'm gonna be one of those folks who has managed to buy a 'great' 32ft sailboat for only '5k' and made it a top notch 'ocean crossing' vessel for another '5k.' 'Kudos' to those 'handy' people. The truth is, in my novice hands, a sailboat like that will turn into an endless money pit. First thing first, I'm the unluckiest man alive. Secondly... Well, let's don't get into the rest of the reasons; it's a long, long list, an endless wishy washy tale.
My very first serious sailboat, as I've mentioned a few times here, will be a fin keel Catalina 22 (Jim helped me a lot in the processing of this good decision). I can still buy it as used; considering that it's a simple sailboat, I can make it work. I won't need a galley or a complicated head system - No old diesel at its last breath to worry about or anything. It has a tiller rudder and such. After getting an okay from a reputable surveyor, I think the extra fixing costs and unexpected surprises shall be at a reasonable level. I might even say 's...w it' and buy a new Capri 22 in a very basic form without breaking the bank.
I also started to fancy Com-pac 23 sailboats as it can be equipped with an outboard engine and a portapotty, another simple design. I'll only consider it if I open my eyes by shallow waters. I know Catalina 22 and Com-pac 23 are two very different designs, but I think I'll be able to make a healthy decision when the time comes. I'll take a beginner class before I buy anything, and I'm pretty sure I can find a class that provides a Cat22...
So as my first sailboat, I'm pretty much set, and I think it's way too early for me to worry about the second one...
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Old 22-01-2021, 13:53   #45
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Re: Catalina 315 Question

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Originally Posted by LittleWing77 View Post
means "30 feet" in French, by the way
By the bye, I'm going to have to kindly ask you why you felt it necessary to include the above irrevelant translation in your reply.
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