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Old 16-08-2020, 10:41   #1
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Capsize Screening Formula and Shoal Draft Long Keels

I was looking over the Good Old Boat List and noticed a comment on the Tartan 27 about the keel and capsize recovery being a possible issue, but it is minimized with the keel length. Both the Tartan 27 and Pearson Wanderer (30) have a similar keel type and a capsize screening rating in the 1.7s. As far as I can tell both these boats have traveled quite far. The Tartan has been around the globe more than a couple of times. Now some will say it isn't the boat, but the captain. Just because it has been done doesn't mean it should. Everyone makes mistakes and I like a boat that minimizes the consequences of human error. If I were to get caught in some gnarly seas and got good and knocked down for whatever reason, I want to be comfortable with my odds of righting. Granted there is always risk we accept. Is the capsize screening for such boats actually useful? Is there another story? The Tartan and the Wander are the boats I am curious about because they have a lower rating than some of the others of this keel type.
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Old 17-08-2020, 21:41   #2
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Re: Capsize Screening Formula and Shoal Draft Long Keels

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Originally Posted by _LifeInTheWild_ View Post
Is the capsize screening for such boats actually useful? Is there another story? The Tartan and the Wander are the boats I am curious about because they have a lower rating than some of the others of this keel type.

The capsize screening formula only takes into consideration displacement and beam, so your keel type has no affect on the values. It was specified after the Fastnet disaster to screen out boats not considered suitable for all conditions. Anything less than 2 was acceptable for racing at the time. As for the difference between a 1.7 and a 1.65, It's not really meant for determining which is safer/better, just means the lower number has more form stability for a given displacement.



It is only one data point in considering seaworthiness and a fairly blunt instrument at that. AVS & STIX are probably not available for boats of that age.


At the end of the day if you are anything like me, you are compiling a list of parameters that you will give different weights to to help you justify your choice.



Perhaps look for existing owners and ask them about how the boat sails in different weather conditions and try to get a ride.
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Old 17-08-2020, 23:02   #3
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Re: Capsize Screening Formula and Shoal Draft Long Keels

Thanks. You are correct in that I am trying to sort out some parameters. I have a lot more sailing to do, but no time to sail them all. Just trying to make myself a short list and compare that to what is available and a number of other characteristics I have decided on. Price and flexibility being two. Thanks again.
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Old 02-09-2020, 15:06   #4
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Re: Capsize Screening Formula and Shoal Draft Long Keels

I'm in the same situation. I'm hoping never to put this to the test, but I do consider capsize screening formulas in my consideration of which boat to purchase. Because I have very little confidence in the long-term stability of the $U.S. dollar, I'm also considering the very real possibility that whichever boat I purchase may end up being my permanent home for a very long time so I'm being a bit anal-retentive in analyzing every specification and possibility, perhaps almost a bit Rain Man-like. I've found this forum and the knowledgable people who frequent it to be extremely helpful in this quest.

Right now deck and sail conditions are probably higher on my priority list than ultra-low capsize screening formulas, as long as the number is below 2.0.
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Old 02-09-2020, 20:29   #5
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Re: Capsize Screening Formula and Shoal Draft Long Keels

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Because I have very little confidence in the long-term stability of the $U.S. dollar.

Since the 1944 Bretton Woods agreement the U.S. dollar became the global currency. The U.S. dollar has never been devalued and its notes have never been invalidated.
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Old 02-09-2020, 20:58   #6
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Re: Capsize Screening Formula and Shoal Draft Long Keels

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I'm in the same situation. I'm hoping never to put this to the test, but I do consider capsize screening formulas in my consideration of which boat to purchase. Because I have very little confidence in the long-term stability of the $U.S. dollar, I'm also considering the very real possibility that whichever boat I purchase may end up being my permanent home for a very long time so I'm being a bit anal-retentive in analyzing every specification and possibility, perhaps almost a bit Rain Man-like. I've found this forum and the knowledgable people who frequent it to be extremely helpful in this quest.

Right now deck and sail conditions are probably higher on my priority list than ultra-low capsize screening formulas, as long as the number is below 2.0.


I have the terrible curse of having been a fiberglass repair guy right out of high school, so I can fix a soft deck. It is a curse because I know I can do it, so I haven't ruled out those vessels. That means I will probably end up doing it and I am sure it won't be the time of my life.

The big question in my mind is if they truly are acceptable in the capsize resistance department then is it the comfort at sea that is the turn off? For those people who are sailing across oceans in 30ft or less boats I would think if all things were equal I would take a shoal draft boat because of the options. I would assume that most vessels in this size range are pretty rowdy.

My main problem now is that I got my wife onto a 30ft boat. The "It's so small. I didn't think it would be this small. (yeah yeah the jokes)" I told her I can't afford to maintain a larger boat and ever have a chance to go anywhere. I told her that she can stay home and I will take a couple of my crazy friends and we will go have a great time. I think she is ready to move aboard just to keep me in line.
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Old 02-09-2020, 21:40   #7
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Re: Capsize Screening Formula and Shoal Draft Long Keels

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Originally Posted by DarwinHolmstrom View Post
I'm in the same situation. I'm hoping never to put this to the test, but I do consider capsize screening formulas in my consideration of which boat to purchase. Because I have very little confidence in the long-term stability of the $U.S. dollar, I'm also considering the very real possibility that whichever boat I purchase may end up being my permanent home for a very long time so I'm being a bit anal-retentive in analyzing every specification and possibility, perhaps almost a bit Rain Man-like. I've found this forum and the knowledgable people who frequent it to be extremely helpful in this quest.

Right now deck and sail conditions are probably higher on my priority list than ultra-low capsize screening formulas, as long as the number is below 2.0.
If it was below 2 I would be happy.

I would be looking for an SA/D over 17 too. There are several ways to make a boat go, the 2 primary ones are internal combustion engine and sails. If you are looking to hold fuel costs down when the winds go light, plenty of sail area is the way to keep going. Yes you can buy spendy light wind sails like a CodeZero, but even that is dependent on having a tall enough mast to do a good job rather than just make up for the mast's shortcomings. Personally the 2 boats I am most likely to acquire have SA/D of 18.0 and 19.4, and those are both 1960's boats.
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Old 02-09-2020, 22:21   #8
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Re: Capsize Screening Formula and Shoal Draft Long Keels

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The capsize screening formula only takes into consideration displacement and beam, so your keel type has no affect on the values. It was specified after the Fastnet disaster to screen out boats not considered suitable for all conditions. Anything less than 2 was acceptable for racing at the time. As for the difference between a 1.7 and a 1.65, It's not really meant for determining which is safer/better, just means the lower number has more form stability for a given displacement.

It is only one data point in considering seaworthiness and a fairly blunt instrument at that. AVS & STIX are probably not available for boats of that age.

At the end of the day if you are anything like me, you are compiling a list of parameters that you will give different weights to to help you justify your choice.

Perhaps look for existing owners and ask them about how the boat sails in different weather conditions and try to get a ride.
A lower screening number is indicative that the boat has more ultimate stability (ballast) and LESS initial stability (form).

AVS is a mediocre number to use for predicting capsize resistance. Its good for weeding out smaller boats with very low AVS that might be capsized by wind, and/or moderate sized waves, but for boats with AVS over 125-130 other things are much more important.

STIX is an EU mishmash of a bunch of designers' pet theories about what makes a boat resistant to capsize the components of which are weighted by a formula developed by committee vote maybe?... One of the big components of STIX is righting moment or area under the righting moment curve. This is a mistake as I will explain shortly.

Following Fastnet '79 a bunch of testing was done on model hulls in a special tank where they could reliably create scale breaking waves. They characterized the size of the wave needed to capsize the models against various things like length, beam, displacement, etc. Apparently later in testing somebody thought to include a scale mast just to be thorough. All of a sudden they needed larger waves to capsize the models. Once they thought it thru they realized several things.
A. Having a mast decreased stability: higher AVS, higher peak righting moment, greater area under the righting moment curve.
B. Having the mast increased capsize resistance.
C. Stability is a static phenomenon. More stability primarily means ability to carry more sail in more wind before needing to reef.
D. Capsize is a dynamic phenomenon.
E. Inertia resists acceleration, in this case roll moment of inertia resists accelerated rolling.
F. Stability can work against you based on the shape of the stability curve. Form stability is not relative to the center of the earth, it is relative to the surface of the water. When a hull is on a wave, form stability tries to have the boat float perpendicular to the face of the water which is inclined, and the inclination increases at the wave approaches. A narrower boat that uses more ballast stability and less form stability will be slower to start rolling regardless of roll moment of inertia. That is why narrower boats are favored in the capsize screen.

A higher displacement implies the boat has a heavier mast and therefore more roll inertia which is why displacement is in the formula. Even if the boat doesn't have the heavier mast, the increased displacement improves inertia, just not as much as the mast. The mast is 2-4% of displacement but somewhere near 50% of the roll moment of inertia.

If I was going to design a performance cruising boat I would use a very light, moderate beam hull, moderately deep keel with a bulb or tip weighted fin, and a fairly heavy un-tapered mast
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Old 02-09-2020, 22:32   #9
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Re: Capsize Screening Formula and Shoal Draft Long Keels

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Since the 1944 Bretton Woods agreement the U.S. dollar became the global currency. The U.S. dollar has never been devalued and its notes have never been invalidated.
Nixon abandoned the Breton-Woods accord in 1971, so...
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Old 02-09-2020, 22:35   #10
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Re: Capsize Screening Formula and Shoal Draft Long Keels

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My main problem now is that I got my wife onto a 30ft boat. The "It's so small. I didn't think it would be this small.
My solution to that situation was to not have a wife. I wouldn't recommend not having a wife to anyone, but it worked for me.
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Old 02-09-2020, 22:48   #11
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Re: Capsize Screening Formula and Shoal Draft Long Keels

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AVS is a mediocre number to use for predicting capsize resistance...
This post was the most informative thing I've read about this subject yet. Thank you.
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Old 02-09-2020, 22:57   #12
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Re: Capsize Screening Formula and Shoal Draft Long Keels

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My solution to that situation was to not have a wife. I wouldn't recommend not having a wife to anyone, but it worked for me.
If I ever end up in your situation I certainly won't be looking for another. I have always been up front about my desire to live outside of society's norms. Some people's idea of success is to have a huge house and a nice car. Mine is to be homeless and have a dingy that floats most of the time.
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Old 02-09-2020, 23:18   #13
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Re: Capsize Screening Formula and Shoal Draft Long Keels

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Mine is to be homeless and have a dingy that floats most of the time.
May your dinghy always be buoyant.
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Old 08-09-2020, 02:15   #14
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Re: Capsize Screening Formula and Shoal Draft Long Keels

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Originally Posted by tanngrisnir View Post
As for the difference between a 1.7 and a 1.65, It's not really meant for determining which is safer/better, just means the lower number has more form stability for a given displacement.
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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
A lower screening number is indicative that the boat has more ultimate stability (ballast) and LESS initial stability (form).

yes, less not more, Thanks for spotting that. Enough bad information out there without me adding to it.
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Old 09-09-2020, 22:10   #15
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Re: Capsize Screening Formula and Shoal Draft Long Keels

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Nixon abandoned the Breton-Woods accord in 1971, so...
So...it still holds true that the U.S. dollar has never been devalued and its notes have never been invalidated. The mention of the Breton Woods agreement provided historical context....
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