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Old 13-08-2022, 08:26   #616
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pirate Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Originally Posted by Bowdrie View Post
^That's a very interesting list of boats that suffered rudder failure.
I couldn't find any Hinckley/Morris/Pacific Seacraft/Swan/Island Packet, or even any old Alajuela or Tiawan built boats on the list.
Perhaps the designers/builders of those boat knew a thing or three about proper rudder and steering systems.
Or possibly owners of those boats rarely if ever consider a sail of some 4000nm to get to the Canaries just so they can enter a W bound Arc..
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Old 13-08-2022, 09:20   #617
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Originally Posted by Bowdrie View Post
^That's a very interesting list of boats that suffered rudder failure.
I couldn't find any Hinckley/Morris/Pacific Seacraft/Swan/Island Packet, or even any old Alajuela or Tiawan built boats on the list.
Perhaps the designers/builders of those boat knew a thing or three about proper rudder and steering systems.
Nor any old Doug Peterson race boats.

Or maybe it reflects the fact that very few rich Europeans sailing their new boats across the Atlantic in the ARC had Hinckleys/Morris's/Pacific Seacraft/Swans/or Island Packets (or old Doug Peterson race boats).

My rudder never fell off.
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Old 13-08-2022, 09:25   #618
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Originally Posted by Bowdrie View Post
^That's a very interesting list of boats that suffered rudder failure.
I couldn't find any Hinckley/Morris/Pacific Seacraft/Swan/Island Packet, or even any old Alajuela or Tiawan built boats on the list.
Perhaps the designers/builders of those boat knew a thing or three about proper rudder and steering systems.
Either that, or production boats with spade rudders vastly outnumber Island Packets, etc.

I find those stats rather horrifying. If I was told there was even 0.1% chance I'd loose control of my car on long steep hills, I think I'd either stay away from hills or make some changes to the car.
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Old 13-08-2022, 09:54   #619
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

Interesting stuff Gard. Would you say most of the rudder failures were caused by hits on the rudders docking.
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Old 13-08-2022, 10:05   #620
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Interesting stuff Gard. Would you say most of the rudder failures were caused by hits on the rudders docking.
Yeah, that's obvious because of the swell in the Atlantic most of the docks out there are moving a lot and hard to dock against.

Instead of docking for the night people should just anchor.
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Old 13-08-2022, 10:28   #621
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

I bet the problem with AP and rudders is that people turn the response up too high for the conditions
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Old 13-08-2022, 11:24   #622
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

So of the 30 million pleasure boats 250 loose their rudder control a year.
Pretty good odds.
I wonder what the odds of of being hit by a flying or flung sheep.
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Old 13-08-2022, 11:28   #623
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

Sheep deaths on boats topped 22,000 one year. We’re credited for sinking a Russian spy ship in 2017.
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Old 13-08-2022, 12:10   #624
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Interesting stuff Gard. Would you say most of the rudder failures were caused by hits on the rudders docking.
Hell if I know what the main causes of rudder failure mid Atlantic is. I doubt there is a lot if docking going on though. I wish I knew - if you do, tell me.

As for hitting something, maybe a few instances here and there for ocean crossing yacts (including the ARC) - but I doubt there are lot. According to some save the whale organisation though, some 20.000 whales are killed by ships every year, with numbers increasing every year due to less commercial whaling (1.000/yr) and more shipping - so there surely must ve atleast some risk for cruisers?. The probability supposedly increase substantially at speeds over 14 knots, and blue or green anti fowel paint is invisible to whales while red is visible, and they can hear your depth sounder. Experts disagree wether it is safer to announce your presence (red fowel paint and sounder on, do the opposite). Last instance I heard of, the boat used red anti fowel paint - which is kess common than other colors... As for containers, after having read wuite a bit, I have come to the conclusion that it is a real thing, but that hitting them is very rare.

I've been unable to find good info. My guess is that many boats (including in the ARC) experience steering failure due to underengineered design, lack of service, material fatigue/rot/rust, etc or use of incorrect replacement bearings, or the likes.

I rented a bavaria 46 cruiser three years ago. Some 25 nm off shore I noticed a banging sound coming from the rudder on the crest of every wave. Upon closer inspection I found that most of the screws that prevents the top rudder bearing from unscrewing itself had snapped in two. Every 15 minutes I would have to tighten the bearing. If I had lacked the large wrench, I'm confident I would have lost the rudder. After speaking with the owner, he told me he had experienced the bearing becoming loose in rough seas, but had just tightened it at the beginning of the season and thought that all was well (he should have mentioned it, don't you think?). With two children aboard and my gf (inexperienced), I was effectively single handling the boat - and I vecame quite upse when I learned the truth - would you have?

With also having experienced three AP failures on three different boats, plus a complete electrical failure in another, I am on the cautious side and very interested in learning more about wind vanes as a safety measure. There has been some useful input given that I will explore further (thanks).

--------
Something has bothered me though, and I need to comment....

Regarding some person's comments regarding the idiocy of the suggestion of detachable davits and/or wind vanes (spitballing for anyone who can't have both), I find the way such replies are put together - as not only very unconstructive, but also quite revealing of what type of social nimb-wit we are all dealing with.

Anyhow, a quick google image search and one will find yacts with both swim platforms, side mounted wind vanes, davits and more - permanently installed. To those that still can't have both mounted at the same time - should you want both, there are many ok davit concepts that that can be detached and stored somewhere (be creative), or swung to the side, etc. I'm sure detatching a wind vane and finding a way to store it isn't a major engineering achievement either...

This much said. Any storage solution of a dinghy is a compromise. Personally I believe that having the dinghy in davits in-shore is the better tradeoff, and the dinghy on deck (or even better, deflated and packed away), is the better tradeoff on a three week ocean crossing. I don't see myself doing dayly trips in my dinghy mid atlantic anyways, nore do I see myself turnung to a wind vane inshore if I have an AP.

In shore, an AP surely must be better than a wind vane, and vice versa? So, is it really such a terrible idea (if your transom can't have both at the same time) - to pack away your detachable davits and dinghy and put up a wind vane when crossing the atlantic, and then swap arround once you are across? I'm just spitballing here - I'm no expert. But to me it doesn't sound completely bonkers.

Myself, I do think I'd find a way on just about any modern boat to install both the wind vane and some sort of capable davits permanently installed. If not, I think I'd find a way to swap arround without too much trouble.

I must however repeat that I have never done a major crossing. So, if the person who mocks my ideas himself has vast experience in various long ocean crossings - with and without a wind vane, with different boat designs, and so forth - I will surely listen. My guess though is that the person has less knowledge, wits and expertise than he thinks or want others to believe - probably less than most arm chair cruisers who inow how to read, listen, and who is proficient in both critical and abstract thinking.

Anyhow, I don't see the ARC as the gold standard of neither best sailors nor best practice - though much can be learn and deduced, and I often find myself using examples from the ARC to argue some case. In fact, I believe a great number of participants are first timers who join the ARC for exactly that reason - safety in numbers, consultants, checks, etc.

It would not be unreasonable to think that some of these ARC-evangelists gobble up everything they get in their information package, the ARC forums (with some blind leading other blind, or self deckeared experts convincing others of their tremendous wisdom the don't have) - gobble it up as the complete and only truth, and then reverberating the gospel religiously.

I read a lot of books - some written by some of the most reknown sailors - all who paint very different pictures
than the info floating around in the ARC fleet (including those that pertain to APs, rudders and wind vanes). I have several close relations that have a ton of experience who does as well. Which makes me extremely sceptical when a self proclaimed i" know it all" without serious credentials says that no one uses wind vanes anymore and that APs is the only way to go - it just sounds a bit bombastic, narrow minded... and utterly false.

I don't proclaim to know much, nor to have a ton of first hand experience - I'm firts and foremost here to learn, not to lecture. I've been sailing for many years, but nothing serious - which is why I might raise dumb questions or come up with dumb suggestions - I am a novice and don't proclaim to be anything else. What I don't do is suggest anything and paint it as first hand expert advice - because people's lives, well being, finances, etc could be at stake.

I don't take well to obtuse social defects that get off on running their lip on a keyboard - people whom the rest of us enjoy most when they are mid atlantic with no internet and thousands of miles from any hunan being. I just felt like a kick in that person's nats was in order.
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Old 13-08-2022, 13:21   #625
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

Are the fowel really causing boat damage?


There are a variety of opinions. Always will be. After a while, we've learned to separate the wheat from the chaff.


Sometimes it chafes.


But there ARE folks here who share THEIR experiences and back it up with THEIR personal experiences, who are far from armchair sailors. It doesn't take long to recognize them if you come to this forum reasonably frequently. And, yes, some of them disagree with each other, too. Who woulda thunk?!?
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Old 13-08-2022, 13:45   #626
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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guess I better add hydrovane to boat upgrades.. redundancies are good.
Its quite a big lump on a 34ft boat. The Pacific Wind Pilot or Neptune from UK is cheaper and lighter.

https://windvane.co.uk/neptune-windvane-models/

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Old 13-08-2022, 13:56   #627
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pirate Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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Its quite a big lump on a 34ft boat. The Pacific Wind Pilot or Neptune from UK is cheaper and lighter.

https://windvane.co.uk/neptune-windvane-models/

Pete
Have heard the Hydrovane is not much cop in light winds<10-12kts.. struggles badly to hold course.
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Old 13-08-2022, 15:03   #628
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

Here is a thought, based on personal experience.

Auto pilots cause rudder failure.

The last time I crossed -by sea- from New Zealand to Chile I didn't lose my rudder but I did lose my auxiluary rudder. My wind vane is what one might call a 'limited edition' - one of maybe twenty or thirty at the time I had it constructed. We were sailing under wind vane at the time of the incident. A big confused swell had built up - westerly over south westerly - usual stuff - when we suddenly fell into the abyss. I recall seeing 17 knots on the GPS - not sure if that was up down or sideeways but it was pretty impressive.
Main rudder was secured amidships and was fine but the vane saw a dramatic wind shift and applied as much rudder as it was able, maybe 10 degrees - its typically damped to about 5 degrees, and the aux rudder carried away at the water line.
(I once had something similar happen near the Falklands when we were running hard and one of the jambing cleats on the w/v rudder limiter carried away... lesson from that - reef early - reef deep).

Moving right along I would suggest that many of the ARC boats are on their first ocean crossings. Some owners maybe not familiar with balancing the boat. Too much rudder is applied by the AP as it tries to keep the boat on track and as a result heavy loads are constantly being applied to the rudder. I don't know about the rest of you but I would rarely use more than 5 degrees of wheel when hand steering.

So - inexperienced skipper + poorly balanced boat + overworked a/p applying too much rudder = heavy loads on rudder = rudder failure.

Extra bit. Despite its bulk I remove my w'v and stow it on the side deck - involves one bolt - when sailing in Patagonia. I don't have davits but it makes backing up into caletas a real cow.
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Old 13-08-2022, 15:08   #629
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

I haven’t seen a container yet. I’d probably never boat there again. Dodged lots of beasts logs chunks of boats a dock in the harbour after a flood.

Yup people back up their deep rudders hit them then they break at sea and start brand rumours to deflect attention from poor captaining.
Beneteau looses a keel because some reckless captain should have been charged with manslaughter for not pulling the boat out after a serious grounding. Meanwhile nubs in old boats sling mud on Benni. Gets old.

Retractable Davits are on my list now that the fixed the water drain problem

I would definitely McGiver a rudder with a table or bed part. One on each side Use a stern dam at 90 to steer.

You can sail a canoe
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Old 13-08-2022, 15:29   #630
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Re: Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

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...Regarding some person's comments regarding the idiocy of the suggestion of detachable davits and/or wind vanes (spitballing for anyone who can't have both), I find the way such replies are put together - as not only very unconstructive, but also quite revealing of what type of social nimb-wit we are all dealing with...
That was me Gard, it was in response to your statement:

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Originally Posted by Gard
If your davits gets in the wa of the self steering system, then get detachable wind vane and detachable davits and pack away or store your dinghy on deck for the atlantic crossing (won't need it for the weeks it takes to cross anyways). Closer to your destination/shore, pack away your wind vane, put up your davits, and rely on your autopilot...
You said you could pack away the windvane and put up your davits closer to your destination/shore (at sea?). I assumed you also meant you could detach the davits and install the wind vane once you got off shore. I still say that's a damned silly idea, but maybe there is something there. I don't know. Work on it if you want.

Whether or not one prefers to use an AP, wind vane, or steer by hand...there are lots of opinions on that. I have an autopilot but I use the windvane as often as I can, inshore or not. But who knows if I am right. Could be wrong, and it's just a preference anyhow. I don't use davits at any time. They are unseamanlike. That's also just an opinion. I don't have any large and heavy structure hanging out on the back of my boat because I like sailing too much to destroy the boat's performance with such stuff. It even affects motoring is you are going to waves. There is a fine line between opinion and fact.

But what I do know is that davits with a dingy on them put an immense load on the structure of the stern of the boat and those loads occur whenever one encounters waves. They don't have to be offshore waves. Most people also load their davits with multiple solar panels, also heavy. Others find the davit structure so convenient they put all sorts of bulky and heavy equipment on it. The whole kaboodle must be strong and that means heavy, and the boat's stern must be strong and the attachments must be strong.
I know of three boats where either the back of the boat started to break or the davit structure actually broke at sea. Maybe you can find some way the arms can be detached, but even those would have to be very strong and will be heavy. So taking the whole thing off an on as a matter of course does not seem practical in any stretch. And that is not to mention taking the wind vane off and on. You'd be better off finding a way for both items to live there at the same time.

I know you weren't committing to that approach, just "spit balling", but to me it indicates lack of experience if not lack of common sense. Sorry, it didn't need to be said, I won't do it again, but that's the way I see it.
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