Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

[SV Tom Crean]

Originally Posted by Gard

How real and likely is the scare of hitting a whale or a container mid ocean - so hard that you lose your steering (spade rudder vs skegged)? Are we talking 1% or 0.1% or 0,01% or less? I'd really like to know - I have no idea, but it is a concern I have.

Losing a rudder for any other reason than impact is of less of a worry to me as a self steering dystem would serve as a decent backup rudder that could be deployed very quickly (and which most likely would allready have been deployed mid ocean anyways).

If steering cables etc brake, the emergency tiller is often useless for steering, only keeping the boat stable while you wait for rescue or get the steering repaired.

Damaging the steering and leaving me bobbing around in the ocean is one of my big concerns - can happen not just through a collision but also a breakage in the quadrant,stock or bearings.

And yes some boats can install a wind vane but they are the minority plus many modern boats can’t use them - I have a drop down swim platform which along with the dingy and davits mean I can’t install one. Might also struggle as it’s 50 feet and 22t.

So I have twin rudders, twin fully redundant auto pilots - if one rudder is damaged I can disconnect and use the other provided I sail on the right tack or keep the boat more upright.

There is always a risk and you can’t eliminate every possible one - Only so much you can do.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Hitting things at sea is a very uncommon event. 1000s of boats are not hitting things at sea. Most rudder damage is done in ports and harbours. If you hit a container hard you’ll likely sink , the rudders the least of your issues.

These days no one uses wind vane self steer everyone uses autopilots. I agreed that emergency rudders are largely ineffective in most cases not worth bothering with. Manhandling a metal emergency rudder to fit it and then steer a 45 foot yacht is no mean feat.

Don’t overthink the dangers, sailing is a safe activity by and large. Fatalities are few.

Really? What bit of ocean do you base this statement on?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Really? What bit of ocean do you base this statement on?

ARC stats for the last 10 years. Since solar is now widespread , everyone using AP to cross oceans. Both my trips used the AP full time for the crossing

In 2018 in Las Palmas I don’t remember seeing one functioning windvane.

[Gard]

There seems to be a lot of fear mongers out there, all of them seemingly either sailing long keeled boats with skegged rudders or not sailing blue waters at all. I hear allmost no fear mongers amongst the vast majority of blue water cruisers who actually sail production boats with spade rudders, etc, etc, etc.

There are reportedly more than 20.000 collisions with whales each year (ships), with the numbers increasing due to kess whaking and increased shipping. Reports say that speeds above 14 knots are most at risk.

There is also a debate that whales who are colorblind to green and blue (can't see it) will steer clear of read fowel paint, and others who say that they may attack it. Some say to keave the depth sounder on to alert your presence, others that say to keave it iff not to alert your presence.

It seems that the ARC has a significant ammount if boats with steering problems, but an insignificant ammount due to collisions with whales/containers/debree. Is that correct? If so, then a good self steering wind vane with a separate rudder should absolve the vast majority of dangers occurring?

My assumption is that blue water cruising with just about any A rated boat is safe-ish enough for most and that safety it is mostly up to good seamanship, preperadness and not taking unnecessary risk. For me it will most likely be a 100 - 150k 10-15 yr old 40-44 foot floating condo (production cruiser) retrofitted with "necessities" as well as creature comforts. No 200k 36 foot refitted ancient floating dungeon for me.

[Tetepare]

Several B430 have lost rudders in storms. It’s a known problem, and can be rectified/ improved to avoid such an event. I suspect the same deficiency is found in the B370, but cannot think of any anecdotal evidence. Weakness in this area is not unique to Beneteau, there have been a number of posts here concerning similar problems found on a variety of boats.

Look on boobtube for the horror stories and such.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

Several B430 have lost rudders in storms. It’s a known problem, and can be rectified/ improved to avoid such an event. I suspect the same deficiency is found in the B370, but cannot think of any anecdotal evidence. Weakness in this area is not unique to Beneteau, there have been a number of posts here concerning similar problems found on a variety of boats.

Look on boobtube for the horror stories and such.

Most of these situations seemed to be post rework or post rudder modifications , ie not original equipment.

For example read up Philips watsons “megawatt “ rudder loss of Northern Ireland some years ago. This was blamed on a notch cut into the shaft for the AP tiller arm causing stress risers

[Gard]

Originally Posted by SV Tom Crean

Damaging the steering and leaving me bobbing around in the ocean is one of my big concerns - can happen not just through a collision but also a breakage in the quadrant,stock or bearings.

And yes some boats can install a wind vane but they are the minority plus many modern boats can’t use them - I have a drop down swim platform which along with the dingy and davits mean I can’t install one...

Hydrovane boasts of their system which can be side mounted. https://hydrovane.com/

Myself, I would not rely on an autopilot on a crossing but would go for something like the system linked to above. It is far more reliable than an autopilot, steers better, doesn't consume electrcity, and serves as a backup steering system should you loose your rudder or your steering quadrant should go to sh**. If your davits gets in the wa of the self steering system, then get detachable wind vane and detachable davits and pack away or store your dinghy on deck for the atlantic crossing (won't need it for the weeks it takes to cross anyways). Closer to your destination/shore, pack away your wind vane, put up your davits, and rely on your autopilot...

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Gard

Hydrovane boasts of their system which can be side mounted. https://hydrovane.com/



Myself, I would not rely on an autopilot on a crossing but would go for something like the system linked to above. It is far more reliable than an autopilot, steers better, doesn't consume electrcity, and serves as a backup steering system should you loose your rudder or your steering quadrant should go to sh**. If your davits gets in the wa of the self steering system, then get detachable wind vane and detachable davits and pack away or store your dinghy on deck for the atlantic crossing (won't need it for the weeks it takes to cross anyways). Closer to your destination/shore, pack away your wind vane, put up your davits, and rely on your autopilot...

No one is using windvanes , check the ARC stats

Bring a spare AP arm. That’s what we did. Way cheaper then a wind vane

AP works flawlessly on both crossings we hardly touched the wheel.

aPs with modern rate gyros are way better at steering then wind vanes.

[SV Tom Crean]

Originally Posted by Gard

Hydrovane boasts of their system which can be side mounted. https://hydrovane.com/

Myself, I would not rely on an autopilot on a crossing but would go for something like the system linked to above. It is far more reliable than an autopilot, steers better, doesn't consume electrcity, and serves as a backup steering system should you loose your rudder or your steering quadrant should go to sh**. If your davits gets in the wa of the self steering system, then get detachable wind vane and detachable davits and pack away or store your dinghy on deck for the atlantic crossing (won't need it for the weeks it takes to cross anyways). Closer to your destination/shore, pack away your wind vane, put up your davits, and rely on your autopilot...

I agree I would not rely on a single ap in a crossing (especially as I sail solo) but I have a complete installed second unit. It’s simply a case of throw the old circuit breaker off, the new one on and off I go. Having said that, I’ve had no failures in the last 14 months and thousands of miles. I also have the power from solar, an aqua gen and if all else fails the genset or engine.

[Rumrace]

BOATING Isn’t for everyone. The ones who run the gossip cliques and the judgmental lawn chair committee are a riot.
They never boat anyway. “Waiting for a part” echos
I saw one of our clubs clique members alone up in Regatta bay. They were right at the entrance we were way in the back on a raft of 3. She saw us and asked why we didn’t drop by. Without the clique they turn into nervous boaters. It’s amusing. Slinging mud from lawn chairs but can’t get a hook in a safe refuge. Classic. I guess people want to judge other folks buying decision to justify their own.
I have two rudders not so deep. I can imagine my Power boat had a better perch to see debris ahead. Moving down to a smaller sailboat almost 40’ from the bow was new intimidation for an old boater. I think our number one find over the years have been fenders. I even caught up to a boat in a lock who had lost one. (Was too big for our boat) we did find part of a swim platform on lake Simcoe. Was after a poker run likely shook off a go fast without them knowing. I’ve never hit bottom power or Sail except the Dinghy motor hunting bass.
I’ve done a little boating in B.C. and Washington. There I would buy forward warning system because of logs. Huge monoliths popping out of swells. I saw a Cigarette triple with two drives mangled from a log hit. Boat was a month old.
I’d say dangerous waters in terms of debris is regional and seasonal in Great Lakes. Rivers in spring deliver lots of trees.

[wingssail]

To Gard: Worry less about the brand than the condition of the vessel, and to reduce chances of an issue you need to inspect and maintain all critical systems and components an any boat.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

...These days no one uses wind vane self steer everyone uses autopilots. I agreed that emergency rudders are largely ineffective in most cases not worth bothering with. Manhandling a metal emergency rudder to fit it and then steer a 45 foot yacht is no mean feat...

Many people still use windvanes. We do. And we see them on many boats, and by the state of the installation, obviously frequently used.

Emergency rudders capable of steering a 45' can be designed to be easily installable.

Originally Posted by Gard

...Losing a rudder for any other reason than impact is of less of a worry to me as a self steering system would serve as a decent backup rudder that could be deployed very quickly (and which most likely would already have been deployed mid ocean anyways).

If steering cables etc brake, the emergency tiller is often useless for steering, only keeping the boat stable while you wait for rescue or get the steering repaired.

Self steering rudders are usually too small to be effective, and may need extra equipment to operate as a rudder at all. Check this out before depending on one.

Emergency tillers are usually short and difficult to use. Think ahead of time how you could use lines to winches to control it.

To Gard, be careful that you don't let un-warranted fears rule your life.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Most of these situations seemed to be post rework or post rudder modifications , ie not original equipment.

For example read up Philips watsons “megawatt “ rudder loss of Northern Ireland some years ago. This was blamed on a notch cut into the shaft for the AP tiller arm causing stress risers

Most common on Hanse and Moody (Hanse) is the bottom bearings sieze up and lose support causing the shaft to drop.
Had this happen on a Moody 45DS, had to rig up a line to stop the port rudder shaft from slipping right down and just relied on the stbd rudder to get us into Portimao and lifted out. Owner kicked himself 3mths later for not doing both rudders while out as the exact same thing happened after we got the boat to Greece.
Can't remember the makers of the rudder gear/seals apart from it being J something..

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Gard

..If your davits gets in the wa of the self steering system, then get detachable wind vane and detachable davits...

Not to be disrespectful but this is so unrealistic I am wondering how much actual off shore sailing experience you have. Doesn't seem like much.

[Gard]

An ap won't be of much help in the event of loss if rudder, loss of ekectricity (ligtning, fried curcuits, or other reasons).

Maybe ap has gotten tremendously much better the last decade, I don't know. But I have had my share of problems of various kinds, enough that I would not trust myself to an ap in poor conditions that could last for several days in a row. A wind vane that in the middle of the night can adjust to abrupt changes in wind (direction and strength), and that can also serve as a spare rudder???

[Eder]

Yep, just store the detachable davits in the bottom drawer with the drogue and spare halyards right?