Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

The roughest ride I ever had in my life was on a steel schooner build in the early last century... The idea that "heavy with long keel" automatically equates safety and comfort is just nonsense.

There is a guy in France who, after spending a few years cruising Patagonia set up a yard to build the ultimate (in his views) go anywhere blue water yacht. Have a look: Bienvenue chez Boreal

If "full keel, heavy displacement" ever entered Jean-François Delvoye's mind, it didn't linger there for long...

Yep, if "full keel, heavy displacement" was so good, many more manufacturers will still be building them.

The rare full keel builders are the Morgan Motor Company of the sailing world

[reed1v]

Full keelers are inherently slower, rollier, and more expensive to make. Some heavy steel schooners were top heavy and would roll people nuts. All in the design. Sir Francis C. complained bitterly about his tender GM4 but since it was paid for by his sponsors, did not have much choice. And of course there are the innumerable Cal 20s that have sailed across the Pacific.

Yes, to a prior post, Yamaha 33s were extremely rugged. The Japanese version did not have much head room and was a bare bones racer but none were ever sunk in Japan, even those sailing through typhoons in the Sea of Japan. Hearty sailors, those Japanese. Only other place with truly crazy sailors were the Falklands with folks who would day sail in 50+ knots of wind.

[cooper1991]

That was a really insightful explanation of an issue I share with the thread starter.

One of my questions is "does the circumnavigation work better in a ketch?"

The second question is "is there any benefit of using the following ratios as criteria? eg Ballast/Disp >40 ; Sail Area/Displacement >15 ; Comfort > 25 ; Capsize < 2

[pjwilliams35]

https://youtu.be/PzIpdSDeLBM

[12 sail away]

I would consider ocean going ‘proof &proven’ yachts like Van de Stadt 34 or Contessa. Easy within your budget.

[Gard]

I've been reading this with interest - being an armchair circumnavigator myself (done quite a bit of sailing the last 20 years but no vast crossings), pondering upon the same questions as in the original post - and having spent a great deal researching the questions for a long time - I am still non the wiser. I do still believe I have a few cents of calue to add to the discussion. Please don't chop my head off - this is my first post (been an avid reader for years).

Regardless what type of construction you fancy or think is better, I think most of us will have to get used to the "new" concepts and construction means of your typical low displacement floating condo with a spade rudder and a vulnerable keel - and a design that is also inferior in terms of heaving to.

Virtually everey single boat manufacturer has abandoned the old concepts, even reputable brands such as Halberg Rassy, Moody, Amel... The old are a dying breed - and in due time there simply won't be enough old specimens still around to satisfy each and everyone's individual tastes for the old - atleast if money is an issue.

Another point to be made. The hull of a boat constitutes about +/- 20% of total costs, regardless of which common material used (steel, wood, aluminum or fiberglass). So, what will depreciate more - allmost completely refitting an ancient hull of old design or partially refitting a 10-20 year old hull of newish design? My assumption is the first.

My greatest and only fear of going for a production is a collision with a whale or container on a long crossing - leading to a loss of rudder, rudder jamming or even worse - the rudder tearing a large hole that sinks the boat. The second is tearing off the rudder - though I assume the latter is is an extremely rare occurence. As for the spade rudder, I wonder how legitimate these fears actually are. Sure, there are many instances you hear of - then again, spade rudders must vastly outnumber any other rudder design crossing oceans this day and age? How probable is a crash mid ocean? How significantly more secure will you be with a skeg rudder? Will it survive 99% percent of the time where a spade rudder would fail or 1%? Also, to what degree will a side mounted vind wane with individual rudder sace your vacon in a collision with a whake ir container - will they both be ripped off? These are the questions I want answers to.

As for a crash or grounding closer to shore, I am less fearful. Losing the boat is not a big fear, losing life is. I trust my seamanship enough to mitigate offshore and inshore risks to a tolerable level. As for fire aboard, they all burn perfectly well and don't affect my purchase decision.

"Capable" and "suitable" are very different things. I've participated in trans-african enduro rallies, totally unassisted, riding a classic Vespa scooter - up against purpose built cars, trucks, quads and notorcycles. I finished last. I could have taken my dakar bike or enduro - I made the right choice.

A production cruiser, like the Vespa, has proven itself many times to be capable of travelling very long distances in very inhospitable environments - it can't be disputed - it's a fact. But are they the most suitable - ofcourse not. Are they terrible? Maybe not as much as thise who have not tried it on for size thinks? Shall we believe all those who have actually done it and gives two thums up, or those that have not and give production cruisers two thumbs down? To what extent did those that made it round the world play with fate and just got lucky? For me it is this latter question that really matters. How dangerous is it? Hom much more dangerous is it relative to a large displacement boat with skegged rudder, etc, etc?

For me personally I really want/wish the production boat to be relatively safe - but is it - that's the question that needs ansering. The number one reason is that for the vast majority of time, I (and most others) will be at anchor or sail under moderste to easy conditions - and I want an awesone floating condo for those times and not a constricted dungeon. I would also go to great lengths trying to avoid terrible conditions or pushing the envelope on any system. This I believe to ve true for many that ask these questions.

With current access to updated real time information on weather, etc - a sailor today is in a total different position to mitigate risks than 20 years ago. If ice bergs or Cape Horn is not on my bucket list, but rather live comfortably aboard a boat as I veeeeery slooooowly circumnavigate - is a production boat such a terrible choice?

As for tankage, storage, hand holds, strengthening a piece here and there, etc, etc - I'm confident that these issues can be adequately worked out - not perfectly, but adequately for those long does passages and the occasional rough conditions.

When it comes to a budget, I am overwhelmingly confident in a production boat giving a tremendous more bang for buck for my needs (and others like ne) - presupposing ofcourse it is moderately safe (which is the only question that matters to me and that I can't find a good answer to - which I also assume the original poster wants answers to).

On a last point. I belong to the breed that do not fear new designs, concepts and technologies - and more often than not see it as progress. Where some find watermakers complicated and tedious, I find rain collection systems, carrying cans long distances, purifying water, cleaning every bit snd bob frequently, etc - far more tedious and complete cated than learning how to fix broken tech and prepare myself for such instances - including having water colkection as backup. If it can be designed and be built by man, another man can learn how to repair it - it's not voodoo magic - only knowledge.

My guess is that few concepts have been more tried, tested and improved upon, than the boats that are turned out in the thousands by a single manufacturer... Production cruisers if the last 30 years.

On a last point. I think that some of you have in this post treated your fellow sailor in ways that your mothers would be ashamed of. I think you ought to apologize and make friends again.

[Rumrace]

My Jeanneau can cross the Atlantic no problem, but I can’t. No desire too busy having fun to avoid people for 4 weeks.
I love reading Benni Bashes mostly from guys in old boats with patches.
Did I tell how slick my Vinylester is.
Buy a fantasy boat some good old brand with teak strips glued on the roof they sail so much better on the Internet.

[boatman61]

My Richards bigger than yours..

[goboatingnow]

Almost any production boat 40 foot plus which some suitable adjustments ( water maker , solar etc ) will happily take you safely across oceans. 100s do every year.

Don’t overthink this , boats are stronger then their crews

[carlosproa]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Almost any production boat 40 foot plus which some suitable adjustments ( water maker , solar etc ) will happily take you safely across oceans. 100s do every year.

Don’t overthink this , boats are stronger then their crews

Agreed- is more like almost all production sailors will never cross an ocean. Those that do use any length, shape, and sail plan craft to do so.

The old guy Yrvind comes to mind

https://youtu.be/2WH4Nv32dH0

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by carlosproa

Agreed- is more like almost all production sailors will never cross an ocean. Those that do use any length, shape, and sail plan craft to do so.

The old guy Yrvind comes to mind

https://youtu.be/2WH4Nv32dH0

Indeed , and as many armchair critics have never sailed any of these boats over long distances at sea either

[Rumrace]

Agree. I submarined a 350 Ray in a Georgian Bay Storm. The cockpit was flooded water pouring in the mid cabin windows and down the companion way. Lucky the four hatches were locked but the head window was open. From the Sundancers helm 80% of the boat was just underwater and 3 bilges pumps were now dealing with it. Way way tougher than me.
The aft cabin mattress took a week to dry out and we tossed it anyway. Was a not so tough either.
I’ve been up and down the eastern seaboard , rather fly south to be honest. Bahamas Mexico Saba BVI. Wouldn’t mind joining a eastern seaboard to Bermuda race but that’s about it. Great Lakes are too much fun and we are busy

[Gard]

How real and likely is the scare of hitting a whale or a container mid ocean - so hard that you lose your steering (spade rudder vs skegged)? Are we talking 1% or 0.1% or 0,01% or less? I'd really like to know - I have no idea, but it is a concern I have.

Losing a rudder for any other reason than impact is of less of a worry to me as a self steering dystem would serve as a decent backup rudder that could be deployed very quickly (and which most likely would allready have been deployed mid ocean anyways).

If steering cables etc brake, the emergency tiller is often useless for steering, only keeping the boat stable while you wait for rescue or get the steering repaired.

[Rumrace]

Oh that crap happen 2 hours out from the dock no worries. McGiver it. We had a brand new boat could not figure out why the generator would not start. It had plastic on the Carb was not connected water splashing up the through hull every wave. Fun. No it wasn’t one of the mentioned brands.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Gard

How real and likely is the scare of hitting a whale or a container mid ocean - so hard that you lose your steering (spade rudder vs skegged)? Are we talking 1% or 0.1% or 0,01% or less? I'd really like to know - I have no idea, but it is a concern I have.

Losing a rudder for any other reason than impact is of less of a worry to me as a self steering dystem would serve as a decent backup rudder that could be deployed very quickly (and which most likely would allready have been deployed mid ocean anyways).

If steering cables etc brake, the emergency tiller is often useless for steering, only keeping the boat stable while you wait for rescue or get the steering repaired.

Hitting things at sea is a very uncommon event. 1000s of boats are not hitting things at sea. Most rudder damage is done in ports and harbours. If you hit a container hard you’ll likely sink , the rudders the least of your issues.

These days no one uses wind vane self steer everyone uses autopilots. I agreed that emergency rudders are largely ineffective in most cases not worth bothering with. Manhandling a metal emergency rudder to fit it and then steer a 45 foot yacht is no mean feat.

Don’t overthink the dangers, sailing is a safe activity by and large. Fatalities are few.