Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

[spiritbaer]

Tayana is it a Bob Perry design?

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by spiritbaer

Tayana is it a Bob Perry design?

Yes, the 37 is and several other models are but not all Tayana's.

Sailboat Designs of Robert*Perry

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

OMG S/V Alchemy! Thats a @#&$(@&#$ awesome boat! To my tastes. I eat my WORDS about OVNIS!

You shouldn't. I had to keep an open mind and basically I found a steel boat almost literally in my own back yard (we bicycled to where it was on the hard) whose builder shared our prejudices...

Because you shouldn't kid yourself. Prejudices, upbringing, history and stories told around the bar play a huge role in these discussions. Actual data, initial cost, various features, not so much, although my wife saw the Lavac head in our steel boat and said "OK, let's get it".

I like the OVNIs as well, and I would have LOVED to snag a Dudley Dix model like the Shearwater 39 or particularly the 43, but they go for $400,000 and we wanted to leave in this decade.

If you approach the bluewater vessel from a systems approach and from a "how are we going to use this" approach. We wanted independence from shore, so that argued for larger tankage for fuel and water. We wanted a plush ride, and did not need speed, and favoured safety and self-repair, so we opted for steel, knowing its needs in the anti-corrosion and paint departments to be somewhat more labour-intensive, and we opted for a modified full keel to give directional stability and the ability to careen or jackstand the boat for service in tidal waters. We opted for cutter rig for "more and smaller sails" because we couldn't find a metal or F/G in good shape or good price. We stopped at 41 feet (I would've preferred 45) because my wife is just under five-one and I have a son approaching 10 years of age (he'll be 12 when we leave), and the running rigging and sail controls are maxed out for my wife at that size. She can just about handle the boat at 40 knots without calling me on deck...a larger boat might get dangerous, despite the fact that she's strong for her size and still in her 30s.

Lastly, the pilothouse is a great refuge from the weather and is the heart of the ship. You can hang out on the day bed, sleep in the pilot berth, or do nav right by the hydraulic helm without getting soaked or skin cancer. I've put in tough new opening ports so there's even a breeze now.

So we got lucky, but first we got decisive. We will never win races in this boat...I should know as my 33 footer is arguably faster and certainly points higher than the 41 foot steel cutter. We decided from doing a lot of talking to cruisers and reading of their lives that sailing around the world was about living even more than sailing, and we can live on this boat quite easily and comfortably, and make our own power and water as long as the spares last.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

OMG!!@!@ Monkey is DANCING DOODLES! Thats soooo awesome and unique! A designer with an imagination for what makes a REAL boat! DRoool!!! =).........

Doodles you are so talented at finding these things!

Unless that's got a hull the thickness of a dime, that's a beautiful boat at a "distressed" sale price. Someone will get a real bargain. She looks a bit like a Subrero Petit-Prince I checked out once.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

alum boats are crazy crazy...have to be really careful w electrolysis. New ovnis have special system to detect stray currents etc.

That was always my thought, but then I saw the Evans/Starzinger boat out of the water a few years ago and the elaborate system they have to combat electrolysis. Maybe it's not the problem it once was.

[SaltyMonkey]

PH, as well as being wonderful for commanding in inclined weather is great to sit at anchor and to see what is going on around you. Sitting @ setee reading a book and getting sunlight and being able to look up once in a while. Rear cabin on some allows for night watch rest w/o FX the other part of crew. And, if you have your galley in the house, easy for one to fix a cuppa coffee...

Alum - electrol is an issue have to watch. On the good side, alum and steel boats have good prices and you can get a lot for your money. See boats on market well laid out and taken care of. When looking at metal interiors they always seem more solid and easier to live in to me. Bad side is smaller boats in steel dont sail well. But welding is FUN and not that hard. Took a MIG class last year. loved it.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

PH, as well as being wonderful for commanding in inclined weather is great to sit at anchor and to see what is going on around you. Sitting @ setee reading a book and getting sunlight and being able to look up once in a while. Rear cabin on some allows for night watch rest w/o FX the other part of crew. And, if you have your galley in the house, easy for one to fix a cuppa coffee...

Alum - electrol is an issue have to watch. On the good side, alum and steel boats have good prices and you can get a lot for your money. See boats on market well laid out and taken care of. When looking at metal interiors they always seem more solid and easier to live in to me. Bad side is smaller boats in steel dont sail well. But welding is FUN and not that hard. Took a MIG class last year. loved it.

Re: welding class. I've been trying to find time to do the same.

Used steel worries me as much as used wood would.

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by sneuman

Re: welding class. I've been trying to find time to do the same.

Used steel worries me as much as used wood would.

1) Check out artist communities and guilds for welding. They sometimes have classes. individual artists also may hold classes. Local community colleges also have courses.

2) Yes, used metals are difficult to survey!

[goboatingnow]

But welding is FUN and not that hard. Took a MIG class last year. loved it.

Welding seems easy, but producing a void free consistent weld takes lots of skill and experience. That's why coded welders are expensive.

Repairing a steel boat to the same cosmetic standard as manufactured is much more difficult then doing the same with fibreglass. True you can " repair" steel boats anywhere as long of course as you accept it will look like a fishing boat.

The same is doubly true for aluminium and treble where it's painted. Good aluminium welding is difficult to find
Dave

[Bash]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

And what is your reasoning that if you own something or don't own something at some point in your life you are less knowledgable than someone who does? Reeks again of elitism.

*ptui - I'm all for production boats, Bash. Read more closely. And why isn't Catalina or Hunter discussed here either? Certainly should given today.

As a point of reference, here is the correct spelling of "knowledgeable."

Knowledge comes from experience. My point, simply, is that information from people with direct experience of these boats would be more valuable than speculation from someone whose experience comes via the internet. And I have observed that the forum members who own Jeanneau, Bavaria and Beneteau yachts have, for the most part, abandoned this thread.

As to the claim that you're all for production boats, there seems to be significant evidence to the contrary. Go back to post number 311 on this very thread, and read it more closely.

[SaltyMonkey]

I disagree about steel welding. I think it is relatively easy but like everything you need to practice, and preparation is key. You don't get as clean a weld as TIG. Lots of cleanup. Where it gets artsy is in dissimilar metals and metals of different thicknesses. Angular less so but still takes knowledge and practice. Still, didn't hold impossibility in mind. You can do this.

Alum welding however - very difficult. Wanted to get into it, but time constraints.

[goboatingnow]

Good steel welding is not easy. Nor can you take a class and become a good welder. It matters not whether it's stick or MIG or TIG. If you examine the welds under X-ray there's world of difference between talented beginners and experts. Throw in some overhead or awkward positions and then see.

I'm not knocking you're efforts , just don't claim it's easy merely because you did a class or two.

Dave

[sneuman]

Back on topic: I have looked at a number of older Beneteaus with friends while boat shopping/getting free donuts at the local brokerage.

Several times, I have seen headliner falling down and/or balloned full of water. Typically, the worst area is located directly under the genoa tracks, which has led me to hypothesize that the tracks flex over time, opening up an avenue for water ingress.

The other issue I have seen is with the quality of the interior, which is typically composite board covered by a plastic veneer -- inevitably, that arrangement starts to go bad in a marine environment.

One last thing: my experience on a fractional-rigged Jenneau (42) recently was that she sailed nicely with the full rig up, but was nearly dead in the water on a beat with the main alone. Same wind, same conditions. I have never been aboard a boat with that characteristic.

[SaltyMonkey]

To Bash:

I take offense to the cheap lecturing about spelling (if thats the best you can do) and also point bringing out that #311 only exposes what I have "experienced" as a buyer and what I have learned from others in this industry (buyers, surveyors, delivery, owners) about Bennies, Jeanneau, and Catalinas - the mystery of what designs are suitable because of the plethora of models and lack of (or protection of) design specs across their lines. To say that "first source" or "prime source" owners are the only source of valuable information may on first surface have some illusionary respect, but the end result is it has a net zero value since 1) finding owners on EACH model of a manufacturer has proven impossible 2) finding owners who have sailed on MANY different models is equally impossible. 3) finding owners who dont have a personal bias is impossible to find. I think this thread has also proven and supported that experiment since we have had little response from owners here. If they had something valuable to say they would have stuck around perhaps, contrary to your own speculation about leaving which is unsupported by any evidence. If they did leave, I guess they left because they knew that they were being exposed to the truth? Can we prove either?

Moreover, I believe other shoppers experience trying to find answers here is valuable, since we are in the same boat so to speak, and what we have been able to gather from different parts of research. Information is information. Data is data. Opinions are opinion. The OP and others can find their own cross connections and intelligently follow the leads. Hopefully, they too will report back information from their own trails and experiences, which holds value regardless of source.

This absolutely doesn't align with your premise that I, for one, do not like or blanketly throw away ALL these manufacturers. It just means that certain designs such as the B 35, 38, and 40 have some good reputation for the shopper based on what research we can find, while others are mysterious due to lack of information from ANY sources. And without proper information, data etc - first source OR second source OR even rumour - its best to look on to some more reputable designs in the industry which have some solid nods from people experiences and not waste valuable time guessing. Else take the gamble and spend your money.

To sum up: if I hated these boats I would not have performed due process on trying to break this mystery in finding a boat for myself. My journey ended on some conclusions on models in the Catalina, Jeanneau, Bennies, and Hunters manufactures that I thought was valuable for my own purchase decisions. I continue to revisit. However, walking on a brand new 35 FIRST in Annapolis truly was a personal suck - thats first source experience. Unlike an older 80's FIRST, I would never purchase a new FIRST. Im still open about Beneteau cruisers, Catalina, Hunters, Jeanneau (which I do like), and Bavs.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by sneuman

Back on topic: I have looked at a number of older Beneteaus with friends while boat shopping/getting free donuts at the local brokerage.

Several times, I have seen headliner falling down and/or balloned full of water. Typically, the worst area is located directly under the genoa tracks, which has led me to hypothesize that the tracks flex over time, opening up an avenue for water ingress.

The other issue I have seen is with the quality of the interior, which is typically composite board covered by a plastic veneer -- inevitably, that arrangement starts to go bad in a marine environment.

One last thing: my experience on a fractional-rigged Jenneau (42) recently was that she sailed nicely with the full rig up, but was nearly dead in the water on a beat with the main alone. Same wind, same conditions. I have never been aboard a boat with that characteristic.

I think you make this up. Firstly all the material is plywood veneered or melamine. It certainly stands up well ad I seen 25 year old boats

As to the 42 i can't say what sailers were on board but they ate main driven boats and sail very well on the main alone.

As to the headliner that's usually the fault of poor maintenance. I've seen the same thing on a tayana

Dave