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Curmudgeon · 31-12-2009, 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by barnakiel

How about the same boat, new. Then say you do the one year break-in sailing her? So, what you get is the same 'late model' except you know her in-out. Better than counting on the ex-owners ability/willingness to break-in, fix the let downs and then tell us the whole story.
b.

That's fine, except that the one-year break in period has cost you 20-25% of the purchase price. Not worth it IMHO.

A new boat makes sense if cost is not an issue and you are buying a semi-custom boat. Then you can get exactly what you want: choice of keels, interior layouts, sail plans, etc.

danielgoldberg · 01-01-2010, 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

A new boat makes sense if cost is not an issue and you are buying a semi-custom boat. Then you can get exactly what you want: choice of keels, interior layouts, sail plans, etc.

A new boat can make sense for several reasons, having nothing to do with economics.

Also, I'm not sure this is right, but the guys are my yard tell me, roughly and understanding that there are many variables, the 5-year cost of ownership between buying a new boat and buying a 5-year old boat is roughly the same. That's because in the first five years, you're not likely to have any serious maintenance issues (and you'll have some warranty protection), whereas in years 5 to 10, boats are going to start to need som meaningful work done, yet they still are not depreciated enough in price to make up for the added maintenance costs. Who knows.

Sailndive345 · 01-01-2010, 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by danielgoldberg

A new boat can make sense for several reasons, having nothing to do with economics.

Also, I'm not sure this is right, but the guys are my yard tell me, roughly and understanding that there are many variables, the 5-year cost of ownership between buying a new boat and buying a 5-year old boat is roughly the same. That's because in the first five years, you're not likely to have any serious maintenance issues (and you'll have some warranty protection), whereas in years 5 to 10, boats are going to start to need som meaningful work done, yet they still are not depreciated enough in price to make up for the added maintenance costs. Who knows.

Perhaps this is where the cost advantage possibility exists: If the sailor is willing and able to take care of the maintenance, the used boat may end up with the favorable numbers. An ideal situation would be where the boat is usable while any maintenance gets performed - Not too much to ask to have the cake and eat it, too, is it?

Fair winds!

Sailndive

Nice N Easy · 01-01-2010, 09:50

I will not get into the production boat, various brand argument. Matter of fact will not even mention brands. That is a never ending argument. I will give my opinion on different configurations, based on my sailing experiences. I have a 37' modified fin keel boat, and have some long distance blue water experience in a 39' full keel boat. Both are production boats, although both are in the 30 year old range. Draft on both boats is 4'6". For a circumnavigation and extended water sailing">blue water sailing, I would take a full keeler hands down over a fin or modified fin keel boat. Full keel boats generally have much more tankage, double or triple on both fuel and water, and it is located low down in the center of the boat, not taking up storage space under V birth and settee. They track much better, and require much less attention to the helm when trimmed properly. Which does not have the effect of tiring you out nearly as much. They have the added advantage of a much stronger rudder mounting system. I would also opt for a ketch or possibly a cutter rig, as either gives more choices in sail plans and options when the going gets two notches above snotty. The arguments against the full keels are: They do not point nearly as high, which is true in my experience. Slow, again true in my experience, until the wids pipe up. They are also much slower to respond to the helm, so not as easily handled in close situations, such as docking. But for long distance blue water cruising, a full keel boat is overall a much more comfortable, less tiring boat.

Curmudgeon · 01-01-2010, 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by danielgoldberg

A new boat can make sense for several reasons, having nothing to do with economics.

Also, I'm not sure this is right, but the guys are my yard tell me, roughly and understanding that there are many variables, the 5-year cost of ownership between buying a new boat and buying a 5-year old boat is roughly the same. That's because in the first five years, you're not likely to have any serious maintenance issues (and you'll have some warranty protection), whereas in years 5 to 10, boats are going to start to need som meaningful work done, yet they still are not depreciated enough in price to make up for the added maintenance costs. Who knows.

Well, it depends on the boat. There are plenty of late model used boats that have been very well maintained and lightly sailed. A good surveyor should be able to tell you what maintenance needs to be done before you buy.

The boat's I'd be cautious about are the ones where the ad says "This boat has just circumnativated and is ready to go again."

Randyonr3 · 01-01-2010, 10:12

Over the last 40 years I've owned a number of boats.. 4 of those were new..
The last one being a J24 of which I raced hard for a couple years and sold it for almost as much as I paid for it. And I had people standing in line to buy it.. And I would have bought a new 42 but couldnt find the layout or performance boat I was looking for.. Almost went with a J 130 but i found a prestien First 42..
For me its not as much as a money issue or having something new as it is being able to put the boat together with the gear I want right now to use and I'm not buying someone elses problems..
With electronics, anything over 5 years old is out-dated, Sails lose 20% of their UV protection within the first season, and need replacing after 5 years.. Old sails will still propell a boat but have lost the performance issue..
Just like cars, I buy new and dump them at 60 thousand miles.. let some jerk do the mantance on it, I use it..
I work hard and play hard..and thats the life I chose.. I have nothing against those that would rather waist their lives and settle for less!
You have to figure where in this Big Line of life you stand. You either run with the big dogs, or you get your butt back up on the porch where you belong!

Curmudgeon · 01-01-2010, 10:36

Oh please. First I'm not a dog. And if I were interested in racing, it would be in small boats.

As for the wear and tear argument, a new 400K boat typically depreciates 80K in the first year. Yopu could repace all the sails plus the electronics suite for 80K and have more than half of that left over for upgrades.

Randyonr3 · 01-01-2010, 10:50

Again Curudgeon
You 're wrong.. I just replaced the sails on my boat.. and am going to upgrade the electronics this spring..
Purchased 1 Main, 1 Roller 135, A Staysail to match and a Cruising kite... My bill was just over 22k...
Now the electronics.. A cool 10 to 15k for the chartplotter, radar, GPS and flux-gate compass and smart pilot.. so we're up to around 40k... and Oh yes, better have the rigging gone through.... and the dollar signs keep growing...and we havent even figured in the auto pilot or the little unit under the counter that keeps your beer cold.
Our First re-fit on our boat was a cool 75k..
Now it could be a lot less, if you like dumpster diving.......

Randyonr3 · 01-01-2010, 11:00

And I'm not talking racing but I am talking performance.. the longer you set around out there in the Big Blue letting your sails flog around, the more apt you're going to run into trouble.. Safety is getting yourself from point "A" to point "B'" in a reasonable amount of time without trouble. you do that with the best possable performance avalable... you get that performance with tunning your rig and sails to perform. to opperate at max efficenty.. Your boat runs smother, opperates better, and delivers a greater return..

gr8trn · 01-01-2010, 16:53

Not that OP, Ivan, seems to care anymore, but he was not after a new vessel with his $60 to $80K budget. He was looking at "production" Bene, Cata, Jeaun.... types that were in his budget and wonder if they could cross big water. Of course if all goes right he could.

It really comes down to what are you in it for.

From my neighborhood this summer I say a brand new Bene do a nice trip from Portland the Victoria and a couple weeks of cruising the Sound with no sail/rigging upgrades. Factory radar, GPS plotter, VHF, and two less that salty crew got there and back without a mark. Why? IT WAS A NEW BOAT.

Later that summer three vessels took off for the same trip, buddie boating, and one had to be towed into Astoria, one had to be towed into Neah Bay, one limped into port. Good thing it was a one way trip, it took weeks waiting for parts to get back en route. Why did they all have problems? THEY ARE ALL 20+ year old very desirable classic sailing vessels that were worked on all summer prepping for the trip.

So, odds are if you want to go now buy newer, if you want to do a lot of work and still have a lot to do, buy older. Either way is fine, you just gotta know what you want and can live with.

Greg

sailorboy1 · 01-01-2010, 19:19

wow, was wondering how it had kept going and gotten to 16 pages, surprised it hasn't gotten closed yet

Curmudgeon · 01-01-2010, 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

Again Curudgeon
You 're wrong.. I just replaced the sails on my boat.. and am going to upgrade the electronics this spring..
Purchased 1 Main, 1 Roller 135, A Staysail to match and a Cruising kite... My bill was just over 22k...
Now the electronics.. A cool 10 to 15k for the chartplotter, radar, GPS and flux-gate compass and smart pilot.. so we're up to around 40k... and Oh yes, better have the rigging gone through.... and the dollar signs keep growing...and we havent even figured in the auto pilot or the little unit under the counter that keeps your beer cold.
Our First re-fit on our boat was a cool 75k..
Now it could be a lot less, if you like dumpster diving.......

I'll let others judge if your numbers are realistic.

I do know that I can get a top of the line Garmin setup (chartplotter, radar, repeater at the nav station, networking) for less than 10K and that includes installation.

I sail out of the Newport, RI area. Many of the yachsment there are well heeled and there are at least 5-6 top end boatyards. Noone plays those prices.

And if you bought a boat in which you incurred significant re-rigging expenses after the first 2-3 years, you bought the wrong boat. My boat is 15 years old, and I have a rigger do a careful inspection every season. So far, no major problems.

ibrgic · 02-01-2010, 09:50

This is fantastic!

This tred is now out of my hands. I have no knowledge or experience so that I can run with the big dogs here.

But after reading this tred. What will I do?

Would I consider production boat? Yes. I think everyone agree that this boats can do blue water crossing. And most of you agree that they can be good at it.

I am not going to explain myself in detail why, but to name a few reasons.

Budget - I will rather spend my money to see more things than to have something to talk about down the pub.

Time - I don’t wonna wait 10 years to get going

Space - I love that space in production boats

Love the design - I love the look on new Benetaus. It is not a deal breaker but they do look like the boat I imagine myself sailing in

That’s all.

All the best in the NY.

danielgoldberg · 02-01-2010, 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

a new 400K boat typically depreciates 80K in the first year.

I think that's overstating the depreciation argument a bit. Asking prices for used B49's are nowhere near $80K less than what we paid in August 2008. No doubt new boats depreciate for a the first few years, so if you buy new and sell within a couple of years you'll have to endure that. But if you keep the boat for X number of years, the depreciation probably starts to become less significant.

You're taking a lot of heat in this thread, and a decent amount of it unfairly. That said, after all this back and forth, have you changed your view at all? Even a touch?