Can Jeanneau , Bavaria or Beneteau Be Good as Ocean Crossing Boats ?

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by meyermm

He thought it had structural issues, why because you kept telling him that the boat is crap?

He doesn't take advice from me. He has a full-time professional skipper and runs his boat as a business.

[danielgoldberg]

Originally Posted by Flyguyid

I, for one, would like to hear from sailors that deliver a broad range of boats for a living. Their input in this discussion would be invaluable.

For sure. But that said, I don't think anyone is expecting a conclusion that the mass produced boats hold up equally well or are equally as nice, or at least that's not my view. My only point here is that for folks who claim production boats (as we are using that term) can't go anywhere, they have a misconception. Sure, a Beneteau is not as nice as a Morris, or built with as much craftsmanship (no doubt in my mind frankly), but that doesn't mean Beneteaus are not seaworthy, particularly if the primary use is going to be coastal with occasional jaunts offshore, which is how well over 95% of boats are used, even for true bluewater cruisers. Keep in mind that these boats new do cost several hundreds of thousands of dollars, so while they are built to a price point, they are not exactly "cheap."

[Curmudgeon]

I would be interested in hearing from delivery skippers who are independent. I would not be interested in hearing from delivery skippers who obtain a substantial portion of their work from certain manufacturers and their distributors and/or dealers. The problem with these on-line forums is, quite apart from folks being naturally biased in favor of their own boats, is that you don't know who has skin in the game.

I feel the same way about boat reviews in the leading sailing magazines. They're worthless, with the possible exception of Practical Sailor.

[CFR]

Morning from germany, i am just thru with all the same considerations and because living / sailing in germany and Denmark i sail / see and talk to Hanse, Bavaria and beneteau owner quite often because our ports are full of these boats. Then there are a number of HR , najad and Maloes, some swan and many for you unknown danish boats. All our boat fairs are full of the a.m. brands so i assume i have some overview, especially while working together with a yard for winter storage and repairs.

All the new boats are doing there job in coastal sailing, they are cheap and easy to maintain in the baltic and the med.

Old ones before 1990 i would say are really nice and good built boats because all this new companies wanted to enter the market and to compete with scandinavian boats. I would say 20 year old bavaria / benetau are much better then the new ones. here the market is only driving by the charter companies in the MED asking for cheap big boats with a lot of berths and heads to afford chartering such a boat. You need 6-8 people to get they charter rate of some thousand euro per week togehter.
Now they getting bigger,simpler and cheaper every year, which is ok for weekend cruising but dont forget they also safe money at the rigging, the stainless steel, and esp. the woodwork. To install sleeping areas is much cheaper than a good built cabinet with drawers etc. SO storage is a very big problem.
Offshore use is asking for more: safe feeling, good motion in seas, protected rudder, storage space, big lockers for biycycles, inflatable spares etc. good tankage for diesel and water but not 3-4 heads and 8 berths, good seaberth, heavy anchor and space for chain, chain roller,

This was my topic to look for and i bought a 44 feet aluminium boat with a protected rudder, only 4 beds , 2 heads but 52 storage compartments, 1000 L water and 500l diesel etc.

Forget the brandnames and look for the boats using the a.m items for offshore sailing.

I am comming from a nordic folkboat and my parents had a 35 feet longkeelr so i like the nice motion of such boats in heavy seea which give me a secure feeling in a deep cockpit , but this is a personal feeling.....

Carsten

[meyermm]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

I would be interested in hearing from delivery skippers who are independent. I would not be interested in hearing from delivery skippers who obtain a substantial portion of their work from certain manufacturers and their distributors and/or dealers. The problem with these on-line forums is, quite apart from folks being naturally biased in favor of their own boats, is that you don't know who has skin in the game.

I feel the same way about boat reviews in the leading sailing magazines. They're worthless, with the possible exception of Practical Sailor.

I love your use of the word independant as you yourself are so obviously biased. I have enjoyed your input on this subject your ducking and diving when cornered was pure comedy. Of all the input on this thread yours is the most biased, independant in your view would only be accepted if it was anti production boat. Thanks again for the entertainment and MarkJ I hope you did not have sleepless nights over the Christmas period with the knowledge that your keel is about to fall off and your mast come tumbling down

[meyermm]

Carsten thank you for your overview why did you go for aluminium and who manufactured your boat? Was it a one off or were more than one made?

[CFR]

Hi Meyermm, the boat was designed in the 80 by alan murray calles Marimba 44 in auckland and i think 4 boats have been built in germany in aluminium at Sandmeier , a small specialized workshop only for aluminium works. It was partly built by the owner togehter with subcontractors based on his experince of a 5 year circumnavigation.

Aluminium: it was not manadtory for me i would have chosse a strong old style plastic boat like a HR or Najad or oysetr also but i allways like the idea with a solid welded hull, not problmes with chainplates, rottet decks etc and as often the offer came suddenly and i decided within 10 days, and it was well priced with 150 k usd at 44 feet an 14 tons. new sails incl, very good maintained etc

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by meyermm

I love your use of the word independant as you yourself are so obviously biased. I have enjoyed your input on this subject your ducking and diving when cornered was pure comedy. Of all the input on this thread yours is the most biased, independant in your view would only be accepted if it was anti production boat. Thanks again for the entertainment and MarkJ I hope you did not have sleepless nights over the Christmas period with the knowledge that your keel is about to fall off and your mast come tumbling down

I have no affiliation whatsoever with anyone in the boating industry or trade press. And you?

[CharlieCobra]

Did I hear a frozen snot owner debasing wood as a boat building material? Did I? DID I???

I can tell ya all about ONE brand of wooden yacht and it wouldn't have a single thing to do with another boat of the same brand. Every single boat is different and unique, even the modern plastic fantastic's of the same brand and model. As soon as it hits the water it's different and the difference grows with each sailing. So you need to evaluate EACH boat on it's own merits or lack thereof.

Do I like my C-Flex (space aged material to you frozen snot snobs) sheathed 49 year old Knutson version of Hinckley's "New Pilot"? You betcha!

Do I like the total restoration I'm forced to do, not because of age or design but because of previous repairs by mental midgets? Hell no but I know the boat will be rock solid and capable, more capable than I am. Having sailed this old girl in her weakened state in a Force 10 storm on the maiden voyage without issue, I know she'll be fine after I'm done with the resto.

I would've bought a 1984 Mac 65 formerly known as "Joss" had I been able to afford it so don't accuse me of boat snobbery. Would I take a Beneteau 323 or something similar out on a circumnav? No, I would take a Bene First or one of the earlier 50' for that trip. Yep! I would LOVE to be able to average 200 nm a day.

That being said, my old girl made a trip from Venezuela to PR averaging 250 nm a day and I've averaged 10 knots per hour for hours on end myself aboard her. All of this with the old sails that she came with.

The point is, buy what works for you. Just be VERY careful with the survey and in investigating whether the boat REALLY works for your intended uses.

[Liam Wald]

Charlie Cobra,
Wow that is truely amazing!! A 35' wooden Yawl that averages 250nm per day... day after day from Venezuala to Puerto Rico. I am surprised that no one has knocked-off the design and started building them. Whoever designed it has done what no one else has ever been able to do with a full-keel wooden yawl. It must be a "magic" boat!

[CharlieCobra]

It's a Pilot yawl, Sparkman & Stephens design #539. They were built by Knutson for Hinckley before Hinckley went to fiberglass. This one is unique as she was the only one ever built with a bowsprit and staysail. She can carry 800' of sail as opposed to the 600' of a stock boat. If I hadn't averaged 10 knots an hour over a day's voyage several times on the old girl myself, I wouldn't have believed it either. Of course, it be blowing pretty good to do it. Under normal conditions of 10-15 knots of breeze, I would expect 170 nm a day from her. I couldn't see sustaining 250 a day for a long period of time without breaking stuff. That and you'd be toast at the helm before long.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by CharlieCobra

It's a Pilot yawl, Sparkman & Stephens design #539. They were built by Knutson for Hinckley before Hinckley went to fiberglass. This one is unique as she was the only one ever built with a bowsprit and staysail. She can carry 800' of sail as opposed to the 600' of a stock boat. If I hadn't averaged 10 knots an hour over a day's voyage several times on the old girl myself, I wouldn't have believed it either. Of course, it be blowing pretty good to do it. Under normal conditions of 10-15 knots of breeze, I would expect 170 nm a day from her. I couldn't see sustaining 250 a day for a long period of time without breaking stuff. That and you'd be toast at the helm before long.

Hmmm. This is unbelievably impressive.

[CharlieCobra]

Well, I'd have some testimonials for ya if the folks who were aboard during those trips were forumites. Unfortunately, they aren't. However, while I find it impressive myself and hard to believe, I'll take it...

[meyermm]

Damn the Sydney to Hobart race has just finished if I had of known all I needed was more sail to win I would have entered. Gee wait till those billionaires find out that instead of all that plastic and carbon fibre they spent their money on all they needed was an old wooden boat (sorry 1961 Knutson Yawl) with lots of sail. Forget all those hull speed formula's etc just talk to Charlie!!

[danielgoldberg]

There are several Beneteaus and Bavarias in the current Sydney-Hobart race. Likewise, there are large numbers of Beneteaus and similar craft in the Newport-Bermuda Race each iteration, and there or more Beneteaus in the ARC than any other brand. These stats certainly are not the be all and end all, but they do stand in contrast to the notion that these boats are unsuitalbe to sail in oceans.

OK, I'm going to try to find something productive to do now.