Visit our Popular Forums

meyermm · 27-12-2009, 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

BTW I'm quite familiar with current Mercedes vehicles. Now, if there were a production sailboat as reliable and well engineered as a Toyota Camry, I'd buy one. But to the best of my knowledge there isn't.

It was you that kept mentioning Mercedes but now it is a Toyota you sure its not a Kia or Hyundai?

danielgoldberg · 27-12-2009, 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Enough with plastic wine corks. Don't take my word for it, go to a boat show (or your local marina) and look at the boats. You will have little difficulty separating the wheat from the chaff.

As for older boats like donradcliffe's Beneteau First, perhaps the 25 year-old Beneteaus built in France were of higher quality than the ones currently being built in NC? Just asking.

BTW I'm quite familiar with current Mercedes vehicles. Now, if there were a production sailboat as reliable and well engineered as a Toyota Camry, I'd buy one. But to the best of my knowledge there isn't.

mudge, have you ever sailed any of these boats? Or gone overnight on any of them? For instance, have you chartered one? Sailed/raced on a friend's boat? Helped someone deliver one? Serious questions. I understand that you've seen them at boat shows and you don't like them. Fair enough, and I respect that. But you condemn them so fervently as if one of them broke your heart or you were bit by a HuntaBeneLina bug as a kid. And if your only experience is looking at them at boat shows, you need to be careful about proclaiming how well they hold up and sail. That would be the equivalent of me proclaiming that Brand X is the best sailing yacht in the world based on how it looks at the dock at the Annaplis Show. Buying a boat show ticket is not exactly a qualifier.

And in case it's not clear, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you at all, and you certainly are entitled to your opinion. You've just staked out a position that I find curious.

Curmudgeon · 27-12-2009, 08:39

Yes, I've sailed on a Bavaria 37 (three day trip) and a Beneteau (50 ft Oceanis owned by my brother in law and sold because he thought it had structural issues). I sailed for an afternoon on a Catalina 400. I've never sailed on a Hunter although I've had cocktails on several. I also sailed on a midsize (around 35 ft) Beneteau-- I forget which model--but I was strictly a passenger. I thought it was too tender.

If I wanted a "modern" boat and couldn't afford custom or semi-custom, the first two boats I would check out would be the Alubat Ovni 365 and the Tartan 3700.

If were going to curcumnavigate on limited funds, as a practicaly matter I'd find one of Bob Perry's 37 ft. Tayana ketches and have it refitted.

john540 · 27-12-2009, 09:14

I know of two boats that sunk recently within or close to VHF range that may not have been lost if they had skeg hung rudders instead of spade rudders. Having said that, I think that the skill/experience/good judgement of the captain are FAR more important safety considerations than the specific model of the boat. Sometimes you REALLY learn from your mistakes, such as "Don't tow your dinghy if it might get rough!". and. "Reef as soon as you think you might need to!", and "Don't enter a new port at night, especially if it's unmarked, and your charts are off!"

barnakiel · 27-12-2009, 09:57

Well, because we will tend to justify the fact that most of us simply cannot afford a properly build cruising boat. And there is always a group of people who will say that we do not need a Hummer to cruise the islands, a Smart will do ... and they are right too!

But there is the choice: say a Bowman 42 vs a Bavaria 42. If we were all stuck with Bowman as the only option, most of us would not be cruising ever.

b.

Randyonr3 · 27-12-2009, 10:27

another note on the amount of people in the play of ocean boats...
A few years ago We saw a gentelman and his wife leave Coos Bay in the middle of winter aboard a 60 foot garden style ketch.. headed for Hawaii.. everyone thought he was nuts and told him so, but his reply was that he had been sailing for a good number of years, knew how to sail and his boat was worthy of the trip..
A couple weeks after he left, we saw his boat being towed back into the shipyard for repair.. the spreaders were ripped from the spars and moss was hanging from the lines atop the tangled mass.. stupidity lead him out to open water with the thoughts of his boat being able to carry him safely..
Somewhere out there in the middle of the night, he pitch-polled the 60 footer and rolled her over on her nose.. His wife suffered a broken arm, and he suffered a boat with thousands to repair... those in the Charlston area of Coos Bay know the boat I speak of.
So we have a very Sea Worthy boat, of full displacement, full keel, skag hung rudder, and in the hands of one that thinks his type of boat is all he needs to be safe, we find that putting to much worth in the boat and not enough in common sence, is disaster..

Curmudgeon · 27-12-2009, 10:27

No, the choice is between the Bavaria 42 and a used Tayana, Valiant, Pacific Seacraft or Cabo Rico, all of which can be purchased and refit for about the price of a new Bavaria 42-- maybe even less.

As for the fellow with the Garden ketch, he could have pitchpoled a Beneteau or Hunter too, and the end result might have been much worse.

Randyonr3 · 27-12-2009, 11:44

Sometimes you can flip the switch a number of times and the light still wont go on..

meyermm · 27-12-2009, 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

No, the choice is between the Bavaria 42 and a used Tayana, Valiant, Pacific Seacraft or Cabo Rico, all of which can be purchased and refit for about the price of a new Bavaria 42-- maybe even less.

At least the Bavaria will not need another refit at the next harbour visited

meyermm · 27-12-2009, 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Yes, I've sailed on a Bavaria 37 (three day trip) and a Beneteau (50 ft Oceanis owned by my brother in law and sold because he thought it had structural issues)

He thought it had structural issues, why because you kept telling him that the boat is crap?

barnakiel · 27-12-2009, 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by meyermm

At least the Bavaria will not need another refit at the next harbour visited

Well, it only depends on how far the next harbour happens to be. If it is just around the bend, sure the B boat will fare well. If the next pit stop is Perth, Aus (while you are in Las Palmas of Gran Canaria, then I would probably in the boat that, as you put it, will need a refit.

Now ask yourself if you prefer fixing a Bavaria or fixing a Tayana. In fact, ask yourself if you can fix the Bavaria. What if the keel comes off, what if you get dismasted. It is very difficult to sail a boat without a keel, or a dismasted one.

I would stick with an older Tayana. Fix her, go, fix her; if this is what it takes. Because Tayana is fix-able, which cannot be said of all new designs.

Not that I dislike the newer boats. I like them a lot in fact. Just think there are better options for ocean voyagers.

b.

meyermm · 27-12-2009, 17:31

Old boats are work if you deny this you are only deluding yourself. Keels do not fall off well maintained boats that are not run into obstacles regularly. Yachts of any age or type are dismasted. I do not mind older boats to sail but I have a dislike of constant work to keep them afloat. No one is going to convince the anti brigade no matter what is written just as people that cannot see that modern cars are better will never be convinced. What a stupid comment, "ask yourself if you can fix the Bavaria"

Curmudgeon · 27-12-2009, 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by meyermm

At least the Bavaria will not need another refit at the next harbour visited

Why not? It depends on how well the first refit was done. For example, electronics are electronics, spars are spars and rigging is rigging. Why would the refitted rigging on a Tayana fail sooner?

You're just making the argument that no one should buy a used Bavaria.