Buying a boat remotely

[arbeitslos]

I've been given an opportunity to take a sabbatical starting early next year. I've been thinking of taking the family sailing/seeing the East Coast of the US.

The problem is, I live in the the mountain west.

For background: I have a few ASA certifications up to 104, and sail a J/22 in the summers. My wife understands the basics of sailing. We have two children, 3 and 6. The 6 year old likes sailing, and the 3 year old is 3.

We are thinking of buying in Florida in February or March, and slowly commuter cruising northbound over the course of the subsequent months, with an aim to be north of the Chesapeake buy the end of May or beginning of June. While I love the physical act of sailing, I understand that for the first half of the trip, I can expect to spend the majority of the journey motoring on the ICW.

I have been thinking of a Catalina 309/310/320, and maybe a 34 if newer. I have fond childhood memories of Catalinas, and they seem to fit my needs - solidly built for coastal cruising, with good factory and owner group support, and good resale. They seem new enough to that they haven't accumulated decades of Home Depot engineering.

Smaller is obviously better to a point, as it makes docking, marinas, insurance, etc. easier. However, I think our baseline requirement as a family is a two cabin boat large enough to have one hot shower and one cabin with a door (the other can have a curtain). A Catalina 30 may or may not be too small.

The relative merits of the above models are less important to me that the cost, condition, and location of the specific boat. I'm expecting to spend in the region of $70k when I am all done. I believe in the efficient market hypothesis, and expect that the cheaper the boat I buy, the more money I'll probably end up putting into it. Suggestions are of course welcome.

We're planning on 2 weeks or so on the boat, and then a week or so back home, sailing/motoring if and when the weather makes it safe and comfortable for the family. If it's merely suboptimal, we will wait. If it looks to be worse, I'll tie the boat up in a marina and send my family ashore to a hotel. My previous employment has given me sufficient points/status to do this for a while. I may post a follow-up on the planned routing in the Navigation forum.

I am acutely aware that my experience level is similar to the infamous "100 hour pilot" who knows just enough to be a danger to himself, but not enough to know where these dangers lie.

As such, I am planning to:

1: Contact the brokers in Florida that are selling the boats I am interested in, and then pay a surveyor to visit them and report on their condition.

2: Fly out to see a boat that a surveyor feels is a sound boat at a fair price, and purchase it, and then contract with a local yard to repair the inevitable issues found by the surveyor.

3: Find an insurance company that is willing to work with me (I expect they will require me to hire a captain)

4: Hire a captain/instructor to work with me for a few days to a week on this specific boat, until both I and the insurance company feel comfortable with my abilities.

5: Return with my family to proceed on our trip. In the beginning I expect to mostly motor the ICW, but if it's possible I'd like to go outside and sail up the coast. If my family is as enthusiastic after a few months as they seem to be now, we would get a lot of sailing in the Chesapeake.

My known problem is finding a way to deal with insurance companies, and to a lesser extent surveyors. The insurance companies I have talked to (no boat-specific ones yet) don't want to talk to me unless I have a boat, and they won't say which boats they will cover. They also require a home port for the boat, which I don't really have. The boat won't be based at my home in the Rockies, and will have no home port on the East Coast. It also won't be a liveaboard, as I do have a house that we intend to return to regularly.

Similarly, while I can easily find surveyors on the internet, I'm not too sure how I would choose one remotely.

As such, I am unsure of what boat I could get insured on, and how to proceed.

There are certainly unknown problems with this plan as well, and if any of them are obvious from reading this, I'd love to hear them.

Thanks.

[S/V Illusion]

Some general advice:
Don’t go by pictures
Don’t go by broker’s description or recommendations
Don’t blindly accept any surveyor’s opinion or description, and
Don’t be wedded to one manufacturer. Condition and maintenance matters, the brand name doesn’t.

[arbeitslos]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Some general advice:
Don’t go by pictures
Don’t go by broker’s description or recommendations
Don’t blindly accept any surveyor’s opinion or description, and
Don’t be wedded to one manufacturer. Condition and maintenance matters, the brand name doesn’t.

Agreed on all of these, thanks.

I'm looking at the Catalina 309/310/320/34 range out of familiarity with the brand (having sailed Catalinas both larger and smaller than them, but strangely enough not those specific boats) and some internet familiarity with their owner's associations, resale, and manufacturer support.

I don't know much about other boats of similar age and size, so I haven't mentioned them not because I have rejected them, but because I am unfamiliar with them.

Would you have any recommendations (both for and against) for similar boats?

I'm looking for:

• Two sleeping areas that aren't the salon
• Prefer at least one actual cabin/v-berth with a door
• The other can be just bunks under the cockpit or similar
• A hot shower
• Adequate sailing (I understand it's not going to sail like a J/22)
• Not too big or old.

[psk125]

The three and six year-olds will be on different schedules and have different needs. It would be better to find a boat with three sleeping cabins so that everyone can his or her own space. They and you will be happier.

[barnakiel]

Do not buy remotely. Fly to a place where there are many boats to chose from. Buy one you fall in love with. After a survey.


Or buy a small boat and sail it on the nearest lake. It will help you emotionally - to get to the time when you can move to the coast and get a "big" boat.


If you cannot resist it ... then send out a friend who is a good sailor, to buy the boat on your behalf.


Buying a boat unseen is like licking an ice cream thru a window pane. Just do not.


b.

[Portage_bay]

I can't recommend buying remotely then immediately setting off on a voyage. I'm on boat #4. None have really been ready to undertake a voyage such as you intend without considerable work and expense.

I did try one time to buy remote. Nothing good came of it. Talked to the broker, flew down and give it a good looking over. Make an offer. Had to remotely hire surveyors. Decided to not be present for the mechanical survey. Attended hull and condition survey with sea trial. Rejected the boat finding the broker and mechanical surveyor had been less than honest. Fortunately the hull and condition surveyor was honest and competent. A huge amount of wasted time and money.

[Reeve21]

I bought my last and current boat sight unseen, but it was my 4th coastal cruising boat so I knew exactly what I wanted. Only went this route after rejecting every other example on the market that was reasonably nearby. You may be able to find a surveyor who for a few hundred bucks will visit the boat, take pics and give you a general idea of what you are dealing with before making an offer, if the seller will cooperate.

It can be done, but it is not an ideal way to buy a boat. I never expected to go this route. I got lucky with a good surveyor, a good yard to do the work needed to get it home and a great prior owner who was a big help once we closed the deal.

Good luck!

[arbeitslos]

All great points, thanks everyone

Originally Posted by psk125

The three and six year-olds will be on different schedules and have different needs. It would be better to find a boat with three sleeping cabins so that everyone can his or her own space. They and you will be happier.

That's definitely a concern, but I think any boat big enough to have three cabins is probably inappropriately large for my current experience level.

We are reasonably used to small spaces (a small camper). My kids have also been OK on charter, though on a larger boat.

I am thinking of mitigating this by accepting that occasionally the kids will each be in a cabin, and my wife and I will occasionally be stuck in the salon. We may also have to spend the majority of our overnights at marinas, which is economically unpleasant, but certainly not unbearable.

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Do not buy remotely. Fly to a place where there are many boats to chose from. Buy one you fall in love with. After a survey.

Or buy a small boat and sail it on the nearest lake. It will help you emotionally - to get to the time when you can move to the coast and get a "big" boat.

If you cannot resist it ... then send out a friend who is a good sailor, to buy the boat on your behalf.

Buying a boat unseen is like licking an ice cream thru a window pane. Just do not.

Thanks. I am definitely not going to buy a boat sight unseen. Perhaps I should say "semi-remotely". I was thinking of paying surveyors, reading their reports, and then flying out to see the one in the best condition.

It might be better to fly out and join the surveyor as he's doing his job. What would you think of that?

I already sail on our local lakes, and moving is unlikely to happen for a while.

That's actually the driver of this plan: My wife and I both have the rare opportunity to take time off, we're in good physical and financial health, and I think an extended summer vacation at this age wouldn't harm my children's friendships.

Originally Posted by Portage_bay

I can't recommend buying remotely then immediately setting off on a voyage. I'm on boat #4. None have really been ready to undertake a voyage such as you intend without considerable work and expense.

I did try one time to buy remote. Nothing good came of it. Talked to the broker, flew down and give it a good looking over. Make an offer. Had to remotely hire surveyors. Decided to not be present for the mechanical survey. Attended hull and condition survey with sea trial. Rejected the boat finding the broker and mechanical surveyor had been less than honest. Fortunately the hull and condition surveyor was honest and competent. A huge amount of wasted time and money.

All good points. I wouldn't be setting off immediately on a voyage with my family. The more detailed plan is I would purchase the boat, spend time with an instructor on it to improve my knowledge of cruising and boat systems, and then drop it off at a reputable yard to repair the defects found by me, the instructor/captain, and the surveyor.

The difficulty is of course finding a trustworthy surveyor, a good captain, and a boat.

I'm pretty sure that this will involve me purchasing the boat at a disadvantageous price, and possibly paying a yard good money to do simple tasks I could do myself.

That's a cost I am willing to bear. My wife and I are healthy and at a juncture in our careers where we can take time off, and I there are no guarantees that those stars will ever align again.

[arbeitslos]

Originally Posted by Reeve21

I bought my last and current boat sight unseen, but it was my 4th coastal cruising boat so I knew exactly what I wanted. Only went this route after rejecting every other example on the market that was reasonably nearby. You may be able to find a surveyor who for a few hundred bucks will visit the boat, take pics and give you a general idea of what you are dealing with before making an offer, if the seller will cooperate.

It can be done, but it is not an ideal way to buy a boat. I never expected to go this route. I got lucky with a good surveyor, a good yard to do the work needed to get it home and a great prior owner who was a big help once we closed the deal.

Good luck!

I'm hoping to do something like this. As I think I've mentioned above, I live many miles away from the coast (and about one mile up from it), but have managed to find myself in a perfect alignment of career, finances, health, and family situation that allows me to head out to the coast and go sailing.

A thirty foot boat is a big jump for a lake sailor with a few ASA certs like me, and buying at this distance and timeline is going to put me on the back foot on any deal.

To a certain extent, I am trying to mitigate this problem by throwing money at it - pay surveyors to see many boats, pay instructors to instruct me on my specific boat, pay a yard to bring the boat to a solid condition, fly out repeatedly, etc

I'd like to do this wisely though. I'm hoping that the end result will be a safe boat in good condition, at a location and time convenient to me, at a mildly, but not enormously, disadvantageous price.

How did you go about finding a good surveyor and yard?

Paying a surveyor a few hundred dollars to say "no" saves me 10x the money if I was to head out myself to say "no". If I find a boat where a surveyor says yes, then I would fly out and inspect it myself in the company of a surveyor (possibly even a different one, because two is one and one is none)

[boatpoker]

How to Choose a Marine Surveyor & 10 Questions to Ask

[Shanachie]

I own a Catalina 320. It would be a perfect boat for what you describe.


It's well-balanced, a great sailer and extremely roomy with a queen-sized aft cabin, spacious main cabin and a decent vee berth for the kids. You want the wing keel for draft reasons.


That said, most boats, particularly day sailors, are neglected by their owners. I once saw an ad for a 30-year-old boat that bragged, "All original equipment." That did not impress me.



It is unusual to find a boat on the market that you can just buy and load up for a trip. It will lack many, many things you will come to realize are essential.


No.1, of course, is a decent autopilot. You don't want to be slave to the wheel. A Raymarine EV-100 wheel pilot will do the job because it does not sound like you will be braving rough conditions.


No. 2 is hard solar panels permanently mounted. You don't want to struggle with keeping the batteries charged. The battery compartment will barely hold four Duracell six-volt golf cart batteries from Sam's Club at about $120 per.


No. 3 is 12-volt fans everywhere. Even with many opening ports, a boat can be hot. It's also nice to have air conditioning. Your wife will appreciate cool nights in marinas.


No. 4 is a windlass that handles chain. The older Catalinas have windlasses that only do rope. It's not fun to pull up the last 30 feet of chain and anchor with muscle power.


No. 5 is pay particular attention to the interior cushions. Replacing all of them is a $7-8,000 job. Also, exterior canvas. A new Bimini and mainsail cover can run you 5K.


No. 6 is ensuring the standing rigging is up to date. 30-year-old rigging could ruin your day. The same goes for running rigging.


There are other things a surveyor hopefully will catch. Minor dripping on ports and hatches. An ancient fridge about to die. Head hoses that stink. An anchor light that doesn't work. Old sails about to disintegrate.



My guess is that you buy a boat for 45-50K and spend another 20K making it suitable for a long trip.

[gonesail]

you might benefit from employing a buyer's broker .. although they will be reluctant to get involved with boats this size.

[CarlF]

I think your plan is a sound one. Some comments:

A 30ft boat should have plenty of room with the kids only 3 and 6. I wouldn't go as big as a 34. Substanially more money and harder for a novice to handle.

Catalina's are fine. My personal favorite in that size is a Sabre 30 MKIII - but only because I sailed with my family for months when the kids were 9 and 5.

Look on Yachtworld for a boat that isn't the cheapest and has "a story" - e.g. the current owner is buying a powerboat or a larger sailboat. Only consider boats that were cruising in the last 12 months. That way you know just about everything works.

Insurance companies are much more lenient on the Captain thing if the boat is only 30ft long. You have substantial experience in a 22' boat and ASA 104. Maybe this summer find a way to get some experience in a 30ft boat - so you can write that on the applicaiton form.

I wouldnt' buy a boat without seeing it, but you should be able to do it in two 2 day trips. The first to look at six boats and choose 1. The 2nd trip is to be there during the survey. You generally can not do a survey until you have agreed on price and paid a refundable 10% deposit. To find the six boats, look through Yachtworld for a broker. Email several to setup a call. In the email say which boat you are interested in and why. And that you plan to buy in the next 60 days. Brokers have to be careful to not take on clients who are just a waste of time. They only get paid when the sale happens and they get a commission.

Tell the broker to find you six boats in the area you can visit when you fly out. Then have several calls first where he sends you pictures and explains what he's found and why he thinks it will be right for you. He'll also have talked to the other broker and be able to give you a good guess on the final price (but remember, both buyers and seller brokers are paid by the seller so they have a conflict of interest when advising a buyer)

Ask a lot about the owner.The better the owner the better shape the boat will be in. Ideally, you will become friends with him. I try to stay in touch with people who buy my boats. I can often help with questions such as "what was that paint color" years later. I love to hear about the new adventures of my old boats.

If you were starting now, here's the sort of boat I'd look at. Why? Owner going to power (probably has lots of experience but is getting old) Brand new sails. New chartplotter. New autopilot. Looks great in the pictures. This owner has been taking care of the boat! My guess is the survey won't turn up anything of importance.

https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/200...a-310-9468136/

This boat also has dinghy davits. A dinghy is really important on a trip like you plan as it lets you anchor out for the night as well as take the kids into the beach or dock. It's much nicer to anchor than sit in a marina. Davits are MUCH easier than towing the dinghy or lifting it onto the bow deck.

[arbeitslos]

Originally Posted by Shanachie

I own a Catalina 320. It would be a perfect boat for what you describe.

It's well-balanced, a great sailer and extremely roomy with a queen-sized aft cabin, spacious main cabin and a decent vee berth for the kids. You want the wing keel for draft reasons.

It's the top of the list, along with the 310 (large forward semi-v-berth, aft cabin for kids), but I'm willing to be flexible on make and model, if it gets me better cost and condition.

Originally Posted by Shanachie

No.1, of course, is a decent autopilot. You don't want to be slave to the wheel. A Raymarine EV-100 wheel pilot will do the job because it does not sound like you will be braving rough conditions.

No. 2 is hard solar panels permanently mounted. You don't want to struggle with keeping the batteries charged. The battery compartment will barely hold four Duracell six-volt golf cart batteries from Sam's Club at about $120 per.

No. 3 is 12-volt fans everywhere. Even with many opening ports, a boat can be hot. It's also nice to have air conditioning. Your wife will appreciate cool nights in marinas.

No. 4 is a windlass that handles chain. The older Catalinas have windlasses that only do rope. It's not fun to pull up the last 30 feet of chain and anchor with muscle power.

No. 5 is pay particular attention to the interior cushions. Replacing all of them is a $7-8,000 job. Also, exterior canvas. A new Bimini and mainsail cover can run you 5K.

No. 6 is ensuring the standing rigging is up to date. 30-year-old rigging could ruin your day. The same goes for running rigging.

There are other things a surveyor hopefully will catch. Minor dripping on ports and hatches. An ancient fridge about to die. Head hoses that stink. An anchor light that doesn't work. Old sails about to disintegrate.

My guess is that you buy a boat for 45-50K and spend another 20K making it suitable for a long trip.

Great list. I'm prioritizing things up into things that must work before we leave - generally, anything that keeps the mast up, the keel down, the water out, and the fire off. Standing rigging, engine condition, seacocks, glands, etc. will be addressed by a professional before my family gets on the boat.


The second category is things like solar, air conditioning, autopilot, etc. I'll get them, but I may install them while underway in my first month (or have a yard install it on my first trip back home, if it's inappropriate for me to install it myself)


A few questions:

1. Why hard solar? I use folding portable solar panels on my RV for boondocking. If they fail, I can replace them easily.
2. Battery generator on board? I use them for my RV, and it allows me to have a source of AC power. I think it's safer to have a battery generator I can throw overboard in case of thermal runaway, vs a lithium battery attached to the boat.
3. What do you think about Costco (or Amazon) "portable" air conditioners? They require no modification to the interior, and are cheap by boat standards ($300). I don't think they would last for decades of heavy use, but for our purposes they seem great

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by arbeitslos

A few questions:

1. Why hard solar? I use folding portable solar panels on my RV for boondocking. If they fail, I can replace them easily.
2. Battery generator on board? I use them for my RV, and it allows me to have a source of AC power. I think it's safer to have a battery generator I can throw overboard in case of thermal runaway, vs a lithium battery attached to the boat.
3. What do you think about Costco (or Amazon) "portable" air conditioners? They require no modification to the interior, and are cheap by boat standards ($300). I don't think they would last for decades of heavy use, but for our purposes they seem great

1. "Hard" mono solar panels with mppt controllers are far more efficient if anchoring is the goal. This means much less panel real estate on a small sailboat.
2. Battery generator ... ok if one is a marina hopper and can re-charge it every night.
3.Air conditioners ... ok if one is a marina hopper.