Buying a boat is really hard, things sellers should know

[l2ridehd]

Originally Posted by Cottontop

Sounds like sellers need to be sure there is agreement with their broker that ALL offers will be presented.

I am sure all offers were presented. However I can present any offer in many different ways. And if you know your seller at all, you can kill any deal you want.
1. Counter with 5K higher
2. I know I got another offer coming I think you might like better
3. I know he will ask for XXX to be fixed after the survey
4. Lets just ignore this for now and see if they raise it
5. I really think he is just a tire kicker
6. They are just looking for a live aboard and you know you don't want that next to your new boat.
7.
8.
9. And I can make a list of 100 if needed. They don't have to be true or even close to reality, the broker controls the sale.

[lifeofreilly57]

I've owned a number of boats over the years and also bought and sold auction/bank owned/insurance boats to fund my daughters college career (thank god shes in her late twenties now and paying for her own continuing education) and found that the brokers life is not all fun and games. My own experience in selling my own boats points out why.
In the market there are professional tire kickers, bargain hunters, and plain old time wasters, these types of individuals can jade even the most enthusiastic and dedicated broker. The broker is representing the seller, most of whom feel there own boat is exceptional as compared to all those others just like there's. The broker can give the seller the best advise but that doesn't mean the seller will take it. On most boats under $150,000.00 the commission may or may not cover the cost incurred by the broker trying to show and sell the boat. The same boat may have been shown 10-30 times before a motivated buyer actually makes a bid, when you factor in the mileage, time and effort it's a wash. He's basically working for minimum wage. That's why they would prefer selling boats priced at $150,000.00 or better.
Now when I sell one of my own boats, or one I've bought to fix and sell I absolutely wont bother doing individual showings if the boat is under $100,000.00 value, there are just too many people out there with no life willing to waste your time. I usually will set up a date and time span to show the boat to multiple potentials if I get multiple responses, it eliminates a lot of the tire kickers.
I don't envy the life of a boat broker, it's not all it's cracked up to be. If looking for something around $100,000.00 try alternate sales venues where the boats are being sold by owners, Yachtworld and sites of that type only advertise boats sold by brokers, you'll get a much better experience. But, as in all things, it's buyer beware, even when using a broker.

[lucseawalker]

In many cases you are better off dealing directly with the seller. I would recommend hiring a surveyor before buying the boat.
First get an idea via emails, phone contacts and even a visit yourself if you really want that boat and the price asked is about acceptable to you. Then get a full survey so you really know what you are buying and how much work and money it will take to get the boat to your level of readiness. The results of the survey will either confirm you want that boat or perhaps help you decide not to buy that particular boat because of issues you did not know about! That survey can also help negotiating a better price with the seller!

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

when going thru a boat you are close to offering on, look for the registration or etc... try to get the owners name and address. You can always contact him and talk about the boat, establish a minimal relationship with him, as well as let him know you are making him an offer.The seller doesn't give a rat's ass if the broker has to split the commission or not! He wants it SOLD.
:>)

Much of the time too, in addition to the above, you can ask the marina where the boat in question is located, to pass on your contact info to the boat's owner, & that you'd like to make an offer on her. And or leave a note to said effect onboard, on a day when no brokers are with you. Just weight it down, & leave it in a double ziploc.
Plus, you might try chatting up the boat's neighbors if they're around, also... and any other scheme you can come up with to contact the owner directly.

Any of the above which get you in touch with the owner, sans broker, which lets you make that much lower of an offer to the seller. For at that point, he's paying Zero commission.
Just, for safeties sake, do the appropriate homework, prior to signing anything, or handing over checks, etc.

Plan B, is to go to the owner's website/boat type online info group, & look for the sort of boat which meets your criterea. And hunt down one which meets your needs that way.
For example. In this situation: Look at/into a Peterson 44/Kelly-Peterson 46 & their respective website.

It has 2 cabins, sails well, is a time proven design, etc. And can be found in something akin to your price range. In various states of fit out, & or in need of re-fitting. And on their website, the specific boats of this type that are up for sale are listed. Along with their; price, location, condition, etc.
Also, on many of these sites, you can put up WTB ads (to include specific requests regarding a boats condition, fit out, condition, etc.).


PS: Going old school, & putting up notes/flyers at "the usual" locales can't hurt either. Yacht Clubs, Marina's, Fuel Docks, West Marine, any place near the water which yachties frequent... especially within walking or cycling distance. Even including laundromats, grocery stores, internet cafes, etc., etc.

For instance, in San Diego, the sailing community's small, & one laundromat (across the street rom the Post Office) sees a LOT of sailing/sailor traffic. And I wound up giving an impromptu America's Cup interview to a savvy reporter in '95 in said locale.
So finding the local hot spots, plus word of mouth pays!

[Mike OReilly]

While I believe brokers are generally a negative when it comes to boat sales in the $50k range or lower, I don't try and surreptitiously circumvent a seller's broker. That seems a tad unethical ... much like offering cash to a contractor (wink, wink) with the intention of circumventing taxes.

I do ask the broker to open direct communications between me and the seller after we've gone a few steps down the process. Trust must exist between all parties for this to happen, but trust has always been a key element of any boat sale for me.

My current boat was purchased in this way. The seller had a broker who was helpful, but simply was not able to answer all the questions I needed answered b/c she did not know the boat very well. At some point I made the request for direct communication, and she agreed. At that point she knew I wasn't trying to screw her out of pretty modest commission. In the end it all worked out satisfactorily for everyone.

[Stu Jackson]

Very good advice here.

If something isn't working and you keep doing it over and over again...???

We've bought three and sold two boats. We've always bought and sold privately, directly with folks who have posted their boats for sale. We advertised our boats for sale and didn't have any tire-kickers. On one boat we finished the sea trial and had her hauled. The wifey freaked out on some paint blisters on the keel, which everyone (boat yard, surveyors - hers & mine, and others) told her were paint issues, but she insisted they were "the dreaded pox blisters" even though they were nowhere near the fiberglass. The deal fell through and they missed out on a fine boat. It sold the following week after I put a sign up on the pulpit.

Sometimes the work YOU put into it will get results, instead of depending on others (i.e., brokers) to do your own homework. It might take longer. We spent a full year looking for a particular type, size, make and model.

Sometimes saying "I'm looking for a 38-44 sailboat" doesn't cut the mustard. Narrow down your choices first. That seems to be some of the input already mentioned.

There are significant differences between even 38 foot boats. How can you just be looking for one between 38 and 44 feet? I don't get that kinda approach. Don't you KNOW what you want?

Good luck.

[l2ridehd]

Stu.

I know what I want. And I have seen 38 foot, 39 foot, 40, 41 1nd 42 that meet my requirements. And I am using a broker because this is my first boat and I don't believe I know enough to make certain decisions about the purchase. I know the 3 or manufacturers that I want. And I have done hours and hours of research and looked at many different boats.

If I had bought and sold several boats as you have, I would also work the purchase myself. I needed some help. And reading on here in several threads getting a broker was very much recommended.

I have made an offer on one more today. And if that doesn't work, then I am done. Wasn't meant to be. And if and when I decide to try again I will not hire a broker. So IMHO brokers are losing business because of the way they work with buyers.

[l2ridehd]

The latest debacle. Am I completely missing something on how this is done? Or is the entire industry a bunch of crooks and thieves?

Over the weekend I made an offer on another boat. This boat has solar panels and a wind generator. The broker has got back to me and said those would not be installed (they were taken down for hurricane season storage) for the survey and sea trial unless I paid to have them installed. They can take the offer and stuff it. I can not believe this is standard practice. They are advertising and supposed to be selling a boat with solar panels and wind generator. A survey should cover all boat systems. Shouldn't this be a seller expense to get the boat ready to survey?

What am I missing in trying to buy a sailboat? No wonder there are so many thousands on the market. These brokers just drive buyers away.

[rkjbnz]

Hi

I think you might find that surveyors don't check all systems of a boat. I think electrical, mechanical and perhaps rigging fall under their own pre-purchase inspection speciality.

I've seen a number of boats for sale where extra items on a boat (water-makers for example) aren't guaranteed to work and if you want to get them checked out that's an extra expense to you.

Sorry to say I don't think many boats come as an all inclusive pre-package deal.

Richard


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[Paul Annapolis]

No, the industry is not a bunch of crooks and thieves and it is way more professional that it used to be I would surmise. It's too darn easy to disparage an entire industry--and it's wrong and unfair and ultimately incorrect. There are good brokers and bad brokers. I don't think it's in anyone's interest to quibble and lose a sale over solar panels and a windvane. First--they are not essential, Second, they are removable and third--they are just not that valuable to derail a sale. If they were removed and you want them installed, I don't think it's unreasonable for the seller to say "OK if you pay for it." because you have the option to walk anyhow. The seller and broker can handle it any way they want--and you can handle it any way you want---accept it, accept it with a reduction or reject it, but I don't think it's false advertising to say they are included. How badly does the seller wish t sell the boat and how badly does the buyer wish to buy it? That's called the market and making a deal. Just use it as a bargaining point--but again, it's not that valuable or necessary a component to wreck a sale for a boat you really like and if buyer and seller and broker are really motivated--it will work. Buy the boat and stipulate that within 30 days you will install the panel and generator and if it does not work, keep some money in escrow with the broker to be refunded to you. Many ways to skin this cat--or monohull!

[a64pilot]

For what it's worth, my survey stated something similar to appeared to power up when turned on, but not checked or some similar statement for all electronics, then if you want rigging fully checked, that is another surveyor, engine? A third.
Electrical stuff, I just took it to be that all of it was stuffed, or old needing replacement etc. in determining my price.
But I know my buyers Broker was very helpful, She found me a lot of boats to look at that I wouldn't have seen otherwise, most brokers wouldn't even return my calls or emails, seemed they took a Broker more seriously I guess.

[savoir]

Originally Posted by l2ridehd

The latest debacle. Am I completely missing something on how this is done? Or is the entire industry a bunch of crooks and thieves?

Over the weekend I made an offer on another boat. This boat has solar panels and a wind generator. The broker has got back to me and said those would not be installed (they were taken down for hurricane season storage) for the survey and sea trial unless I paid to have them installed. They can take the offer and stuff it. I can not believe this is standard practice. They are advertising and supposed to be selling a boat with solar panels and wind generator. A survey should cover all boat systems. Shouldn't this be a seller expense to get the boat ready to survey?

What am I missing in trying to buy a sailboat? No wonder there are so many thousands on the market. These brokers just drive buyers away.

Offer to pay for the installation on the condition that the payment comes off the purchase price if you buy.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by l2ridehd

Over the weekend I made an offer on another boat. This boat has solar panels and a wind generator. The broker has got back to me and said those would not be installed (they were taken down for hurricane season storage) for the survey and sea trial unless I paid to have them installed. They can take the offer and stuff it. I can not believe this is standard practice. They are advertising and supposed to be selling a boat with solar panels and wind generator. A survey should cover all boat systems. Shouldn't this be a seller expense to get the boat ready to survey?

Actually, it's normal for the expenses related to the survey to be covered by the potential buyer. Didn't your buyer's broker tell you this?

Anything can be negotiated, but it's normal to have the buyer cover these costs. In this case I can see how the seller would want you to pay for re-installation of that equipment if it is a big deal to set it all back up. Why not just negotiate a split, or have the launch costs go towards the price of the boat if you decide to proceed with the sale. As I say, anything is negotiable.

Quite frankly, there's not much a surveyor is going to say about solar panels and a wind generator. I certainly wouldn't make that the critical factor in buying a boat. You can include a commitment as part of the sales agreement affirming these things work, although the seller would probably include a fudge-factor like "at the time of removal they were working...".

[l2ridehd]

Thanks everyone for the reality check.

I do understand the limits of the survey and the need for a separate engine and rigging survey. However I would want to at a minimum turn on and test each piece of electrical gear and electronics. I would want to verify the solar and wind generator was providing a charge to the batteries. Those aare on the listing, they are included in the price of the boat, so they should work or be repaired or replaced.

I just am somewhat shocked at how this process seems to work. If this sale fails I am going to quit looking and go back to chartering. And I know all brokers are not the same, I guess I have just been unlucky with the four I have had to deal with so far.

[rkjbnz]

I don't really understand the purpose of a buyers broker, surely their agenda is similar to the sellers broker; they just want to sell a boat to get a cut, which is their job so certainly nothing crooked about it.

I do understand your cautiousness though and perhaps an alternative would be to join a local yacht squadron and ask some of the long term members. My family did this for our first boat, the commodore was more than happy to come out for a few hours and went over the boat, asked a lot of right questions to the broker and even went on the sea trial.

If you have a short list of boats/makes/models them talk to someone knowledgeable outside of the sale and purchase they should give you the confidence and may have more luck with your offers. They might even be able to suggest a good offer on a particular boat.

Richard


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