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Old 04-10-2024, 06:05   #1
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Buying a boat... A noobs ideas! HELP ;-)

So after properly introducing myself (other post) I would like to leech from your collective wisdom on buying a boat!

I'm excited and also reasonably scared of the whole process and a total newbie at that so I'm not exactly sure that my reasoning makes any sense! I'm also longwinded so bear with me.

Restarted sailing this year and I want to buy a boat and sail away :-p (can I hear a collective sigh..."another one").

I have no experience...did 1 3 month stint circumnavigating the UK in 1990 as a 14y old with my godfather... then nothing until this year. I've done an RYA competent crew, did a 1 week cruise with the family and with a local sailing club a couple of regattas, including a 2 day off shore one, for a grand total of about 1000Nm this summer. I'll keep doing regatta's and outings with the club and next spring day or coastal skipper. Buy a boat, sail my local waters (adriatic) for a year or 2 to figure out this sailing thing and get the boat up to par and... well I'll evaluate that in 2 years time

My problem is I would like to buy a boat, but with the exception of the Italian racing club (I'm based in the Adriatic) I'm now part of nobody I know sails, and the club guys are all only into racing their millenium and grand soleil 40s not cruising ;-) I've also not sailed that many different yachts (bavaria 45 and 44, Beneteau 423, the above millenium and grand soleils and my godfathers hallberg rassy ketch when I was 14).

So I need YOUR HELP!

I've identified my boat wants (a short list):
- 38-45ft, so enough long term space for 3 (me, girlfriend and 6y old son).
- Good passage maker. Yes yes I'll be only sailing the Med the first 2 years, and Yes Yes... everybody dreams but nobody does... but I don't want to buy a boat and then sell (ouch) and buy another one in 3 years time.
- Reasonable displacement (not too light)
- Enough tankage (fuel and water)
- Furling headsail, maybe 2nd forestay
- 80K€ to 125K€ (but the top end would need to be already well equipped).
- No charter and no obvious big ticket renovations (I don't want a project boat I want to sail)

Next I've made an overview in which I sum up big cost items on boats I'm interested in. So let's say I'm interested in a boat and have gotten from the broker/owner the description I would add the cost of below if needed (like replacing original 2005 rigging).

Would you add anything? And is my budget for an average 40footer more or less ball park ok?

- Engine (full overhaul = 3000€)
- Standing rigging (renewal 10K€)
- Sails (repair/2nd hand replacement 5K€, new sails 10K€)
- Keel and keel bolts (5K€)

Then their is the equipment that such a yacht would need a bit more long term... stuff like:

- Navigation (AIS, Radar, plotter)
- Safety (EPIRB, liferaft)
- Energy (Davids or arch and solar, inverter, new battery bank)
- Replacing electrics
- 2nd rudder/Autopilot (windvane?)
- Big Anchor and chain/rode
- Refrigiration

Would you add anything (I know it becomes a personal choice... but I'm just an inexperienced noob!)

So adding all this up gives me a total package and sum. I'm not taking into consideration yet mooring or insurance.

So I could have yachts at the to range of my budget:

Like this beneteau 44 which is basically ready to go cross the Atlantic (the owner was prepping for that but in the end stopped his dream):

https://www.bandofboats.com/it/barche-in-vendita/152121

Or bottom of the range: A Moody 425 in good shape ("new" beta marine engine from 2018, standing rigging replaced in 2022) for a low 85-90K€ but would need to add basically 30K€ of stuff on top of it.

Anyway: How would you do it? Would you go for a ready to go or a sound base and I'll add stuff (lots of work)? Is there anything I'm missing?

Point is I haven't made my mind up yet and this excel overview is getting bigger and bigger while I add more prospective boats (benetea 44cc, moody 425 and 44, Beneteau 423, Beneteau 393, Bavaria 44).

Cheers all! Buying diving stuff or a motor bike, even a house was a lot easier!
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Old 04-10-2024, 11:03   #2
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Re: Buying a boat... A noobs ideas! HELP ;-)

You are right a 35+ footer should be big enough for 2+1 to go anywhere and do anything.


Depending on what boat style you want and what your budget allows, you are looking at say 50k for a boat in decent condition. I would say an initial 70k budget is good enough to get the boat and make it ready for any adventure. And then comes the annual outlay that will depend on how you use the boat, where you sail, and - PREDOMINANTLY - on your lifestyle (=spending patterns). These patterns are in-grained and you will spend cruising as much as you do living in a house, plus some more.


As long as the boat has the basics and is 100% sound, there is no need to upgrade to degrade her. Simply do ahead and do some sailing, then add what you think you want there - along the way. There are chandleries everywhere today. And the Amazon.


Mind once you step into this, it is costly to roll back. And lacking experience, many new cruisers spend $$$ while never getting anywhere in their boats. So my advice is to start with the bare bones basics, do it for a while, and adjust / upgrade / downgrade / modify as you go. Learn from doing, not from looking at what some rarefied others might have or say is "necessary". For only to navigate is necessary, all other things are optional extras.


PS By 'bare bones' I understand a simple simple, strong and perfectly sound boat that is designed to be used the way you want to use it.


PS2 Look at displacement (weight) of the boat even before you look at her LOA. It is the displacement that dictates all other things and same LOA boats may differ dramatically in how they need to be handled and what they are capable of.


PS3 Look at LWL even before you look at LOA. LWL may buy you more living space and better passage times, all other things proportional.



Have fun.


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Old 04-10-2024, 11:14   #3
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Re: Buying a boat... A noobs ideas! HELP ;-)

PS4


I think the Oceanis you posted is a poor choice. Unless all you want from the boat is to provide plenty of space inside. My friends here have just sold their meticulously maintained Moody 376, at half that price.


No rudder challenges to solve, no UV damage, rigging and sails from 2022. Beta engine from 2012. simple, reliable, comfortable and fast.


Take it slow. Look at all the options before you splash out. It is easy to buy a boat, very easy.


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Old 04-10-2024, 14:34   #4
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Re: Buying a boat... A noobs ideas! HELP ;-)

I would like to offer a different approach, because I think you're trying to make a too big "first bite". But this is my bias, because it is how my Jim and I started out, down to girlfriend status and kids (each of us).

Starting soon, get about a 30 ft. boat, and see if you all like sailing, how you handle vigorous motion, if there are sailing situations that stress you out. You're going out to have a good time, and as skipper it's your responsibility to make that happen for your crew, or they won't be around long.

Cruising around the Adriatic sounds lovely to me, and I hope you and GF and lad have a great time. If you decide to stay together, AND you all enjoy your boating time, and after you have conjointly dealt with a few mishaps and see how you are with the responsibilities of a skipper, then decide if you want a boat for "as long as it's fun,"
and get the larger boat.

One of CF's other member suggests that your "as long as it's fun boat" be as small as you can tolerate happily because it costs less in berthing fees, maintenance fees, and boatyard time. You may require more cabins as the lad becomes more mature. You and your good lady should come to a consensus relative to accommodations.

You mentioned dive gear. You'll want it for the lady and the lad, too. It's bulky. For years we only snorkeled, our 36 footer really didn't have room for SCUBA gear for two.

Do not kid yourself that you're learning anything from You Tubes that will help you. it is basically entertainment, learning will come from more fun and not so fun sailing experiences, and you've made a good start at that. You need to get out and do it, but not to spend a whole lot of your hard earned shekels doing it...just my two cents. Your GF, if she turns out to be a "keeper", should learn enough to safely take the boat on her own from an ocean medevac for you to the harbour of her choice--this is so you can sleep on your off watch, and she and her son can be assured of their relative safety.

Ann
very long term cruiser

On edit: I see I should have read your Meets & Greets before answering you, because this is something your GF suggested to you, based on your experience together, and she already has some experience and ideas.

Anyhow, if you think 36 ft. is a sweet spot for you, go for it. Jim and I lived on our 36 footer for 18 yrs., and as you can see from the avatar on the left, we're now in a 46', for 21 yrs. This one had enough room for two tanks and bc's and fins, etc. in the lazarette.
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Old 04-10-2024, 15:43   #5
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Re: Buying a boat... A noobs ideas! HELP ;-)

Ann and Barnakiel. I really appreciated your honest responses.

I'll answer Barnakiel first and then Ann.

Part of me thinks that having immediately a fully equiped boat is better. More sailing less time spending upgrading stuff.

On the other hand your remark that focussing on the "a good base" and not worrying about any addons is probably the right approach.

You'll learn what is important for you along the way, and you'll learn the systems you install (or have installed) instead of having to scratch the surface of what someone else did.

Also I can say that I want to do this or that in 2 years time, but things can change. Maybe I'll keep sailing in the Adriatic, maybe I get more into regatta's, maybe I stop... things change in life. So having a blue water cruiser ready to go might be a bit stupid if with changing plans you are just doing weekend stints out of your own small marina.

Finally the up front cost is quite a bit lower, which is always a plus!

So I'll take that approach actually. I'll focus on a boat in the size range, with the displacement I want and focus on the basics. Good engine, recent standing rigging, quality of the sails, keel, etc. Everything else can follow later.

On prices... well maybe I'm looking at the wrong spots? 50-60K€ for a sound 40 ft with the sound base is not so easy. You mention Moody. I've been lurking on the MOA (moody owners association for a while) and have been in touch with a couple of owners.

There was a moody 44, well equiped but the selling price was close to 130K€. Next a Moody 42 in the same price range. There is a 422 for sale that might go for 80-85K€ that covers all the right basics, but it sold very fast. Finally there is a 425 for sale that I'm interested in (and have been talking to the broker/owner), very recent engine, standing rigging replaced 2 years ago, keel bolts replaced, etc... very good, but also they are asking 90K€.

So any tips are appreciated! In the end I'm not in a hurry... like you say. Boats buying is easy, selling them a lot harder!

Cheers!
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Old 04-10-2024, 16:24   #6
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Re: Buying a boat... A noobs ideas! HELP ;-)

Heya Ann,

I follow you as well in a sense. Handling vigorous motion, is not a problem, I've spend weeks and weeks on small boats offshore, in some nasty weather (not sailing related). My girlfriend is bomb proof in that regard as well (to be honest I get green around the nose before she does). Our son is an unknown but so far in chop he actually just falls a sleep.

Your idea of a smallish 30 or smaller yacht is in my mind as well. If I don't fall in love with a yacht/don't find a match I'll buy a small 28 footer with 2 friends from the club. <30ft we can slip for free at the clubs marina, not a lot of maintenance and we can take her out learning the ropes without scaring ourselves silly.

I love watching those youtube movies (well the ones not focussing on scantly clad ladies that is, or big drama renovations), but I do consider it just entertainment.

I've got a technical diving background. If a beginner diver would ask me how to aproach a 5hour 2km cave dive at 70m, I would not know how to begin to answer that. There is just to much involved, there is just to much involved that only comes with rigerous training, experience and knowing your equipment very well. Not something that some easy youtube movies can teach! But still you see (in technical diving) people going much to fast, until something scares the **** out of them or they are in a big incident/accident. I've had my share of incidents and accidents so I understand slow going is important.

The same but in a much much broader range applies I guess to sailing. So baby steps are required ;-) Not sure yet if the future will bring a bigger yacht to start baby steps on or a -30ft.

A good anecdote on this happened not so long ago on the week cruise. The captain (who does regatta's in our club) told me to sail in a relative narrow channel between 2 islands. It was blowing about 20 knots and we had 1 reef in. She warned me that coming out of the shelter of 1 island we would get strong gusts blowing. That happened and we heeled quite far over. I didn't have sea room to turn and depower so I asked her shouldn't we depower the main a bit, and she said no she's good as she goes, the gusts will stop in a couple of minutes. I was scared because we were quite heeled over in choppy seas, but she was very calm ;-) That you get from experience... and it has to grow slowly.

Plan is to buddy up. Meaning my girlfriend will need the same credentials as I have and we'll grow in experience together. 1 day she's skipper the next day I'm the skipper. I don't know how this will work out, but we are aware that this is for us a team sport/hobby/life (whatever happens).

Cheers!

PS: Yes dive gear will need to be onboard if this becomes something long term... luckily just some friendly recreational scuba stuff... I can tell you that technical gear can explode quite fast ;-)

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Old 04-10-2024, 22:11   #7
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Re: Buying a boat... A noobs ideas! HELP ;-)

Yes, listen to Ann! Speaking from my own experience I feel lucky that I have a small boat that didn't cost much to buy and doesn't cost much to own and I have a beautiful local cruising ground. The kids and I enjoy it and my wife occasionally does sometimes. Be sure everyone is just as excited as you are before you go for a bigger boat. In my case the boat is great for what I ask of it. (Which for me as I say is just local offshore island cruising.) If I wanted to go farther afield I'd be looking for a bigger boat AND I'd have to be certain everyone else was into it and we could afford the boat, the improvements and the maintenance cash flow. If not, realistically, it's best to put the brakes on the dreaming.
Are there some nice areas/anchorages that are not too far away where you plan to start out?
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Old 05-10-2024, 08:05   #8
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Re: Buying a boat... A noobs ideas! HELP ;-)

If I can give any advice then crew on a boat doing an extended passage over several days. Nothing gives you more insight into what works on a boat and what sells at a boat show. I did two 9 day passages from the US east coast to the Caribbean and back, they were both offshore with no sight of land. These were on a Hanse 508. I took all that knowledge plus the 30 years of owning and racing sailboats to buy the one we sail on today in the Med which was different to what I thought I would buy before those passages.


Examples;

- Just something as simple as the way a cabinet door opens can be the difference between a shower of dishes or things staying put.

- The shape of the galley, linear galleys are dangerous.

- Life raft storage, if it”s on your cabin top you’re not deploying that in an emergency.

- Extra fuel, we carried 15 - 20 litre diesel Jerry cans on deck for the passage, That puts allot of weight in the wrong place, and view that as dangerous.

- Sail handling, alone or is a crew required.

- Can you manage everything from the cockpit. Shorten sail? Can you see the sails?

- Storage. I was surprised for a 50 foot boat how little real storage exists on the 508. The interior is so open that most of the cabinets are filled with tanks, water maker, electrics and electronics. The bow locker looks great until you fit a downwind sail and fenders. So many cruisers in the Med keep fenders on deck or deployed because the production boats don’t have space when you get a few folks on board. I know of many who use one of the cabins of their 3 cabin boat for storage.
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Old 05-10-2024, 08:22   #9
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Re: Buying a boat... A noobs ideas! HELP ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VikingBlod View Post
If I can give any advice then crew on a boat doing an extended passage over several days. Nothing gives you more insight into what works on a boat and what sells at a boat show. I did two 9 day passages from the US east coast to the Caribbean and back, they were both offshore with no sight of land. These were on a Hanse 508. I took all that knowledge plus the 30 years of owning and racing sailboats to buy the one we sail on today in the Med which was different to what I thought I would buy before those passages.


Examples;

- Just something as simple as the way a cabinet door opens can be the difference between a shower of dishes or things staying put.

- The shape of the galley, linear galleys are dangerous.

- Life raft storage, if it”s on your cabin top you’re not deploying that in an emergency.

- Extra fuel, we carried 15 - 20 litre diesel Jerry cans on deck for the passage, That puts allot of weight in the wrong place, and view that as dangerous.

- Sail handling, alone or is a crew required.

- Can you manage everything from the cockpit. Shorten sail? Can you see the sails?

- Storage. I was surprised for a 50 foot boat how little real storage exists on the 508. The interior is so open that most of the cabinets are filled with tanks, water maker, electrics and electronics. The bow locker looks great until you fit a downwind sail and fenders. So many cruisers in the Med keep fenders on deck or deployed because the production boats don’t have space when you get a few folks on board. I know of many who use one of the cabins of their 3 cabin boat for storage.

Heya viking, I have more or less an idea of what I need and want. I don't have experience but I wonder how to extend that for boats that I'm interested in.

I've done a 3 day regatta off shore on a millenium 40 but that doesn't really help because it's a race boat. I can't even stand up in the saloon. I've done a week on a bavaria 45 and another on a beneteau 423, but also those are totally different from a moody or oyster or najad, or.... etc

Also don't think there are a lot of crew opportunities for the exact types/models I'm interested in... (well I don't know... need to have a look)! But you are right buying something in the dark is not so good either.
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Old 05-10-2024, 08:28   #10
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Re: Buying a boat... A noobs ideas! HELP ;-)

So my plan is to go and check out 3 short listed yachts... if they don't match I'll put the "buying a boat plan" back in the freezer until next season and see then, and in the meanwhile keep sailing (last regatta is 1 december).

The shortlist are:
- Najad 390. Went to have a look today. Good basis but the full teak deck needs to be replaced so that's 20K€ there... so this one is probably out.
- Moody 425 in Corfu. Basis seems good but I would need to have a real look instead of just pics. New engine, new standing rigging...
- Oyster 435 in Spain. It looks realy nice, the couple selling are ending their liveaboard live in the med after 18 years on board. BUT... it's got a leaking water tank that needs replacement, a teak deck (refurbished in 2014... but still... ) and "some osmosis".

That worries me... not sure if it warrants a visit. No idea what a water tank replacement could mean in effort or cost, and "some osmosis" could mean 200 blisters into the GRP or 5 blisters into the epoxy only. She basically said "We had a recent insurance survey which noted some signals of osmosis and suggested treatment would be needed in the future. We are prepared to discount the price I respect if this".

Bit worried about that one... Anybody got any experience with this? Does Osmosis in 1 spot mean automatically that the whole hull is suspect?

Anyway... let's see how it goes... tomorrow regatta!
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Old 05-10-2024, 11:41   #11
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Re: Buying a boat... A noobs ideas! HELP ;-)

Quote:
Finally the up front cost is quite a bit lower, which is always a plus!
Wrong, in boats it's almost always cheaper if the previous owner paid for it.
Make a list of important things so you don't waste so much time on fruitless searches, unless you WANT teak decks don't look at boats with them. Personally I prefer no wood exposed to weather.
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Old 05-10-2024, 13:58   #12
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Re: Buying a boat... A noobs ideas! HELP ;-)

I like French Aluminum boats. No fiberglass problems, solid boats that you can do work on the interior without too much difficulty. Every interior panel in my boat is removable, unscrew a few screws and I can reach everything.

A Ovni 39 might be a good size/price for you to check out. The Ovni 395 is about double the price of the 39.
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Old 05-10-2024, 18:34   #13
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Re: Buying a boat... A noobs ideas! HELP ;-)

I'm of the opinion that the biggest boat you should buy right now is 11m.

It has enough room but is not too big. 11m is about the limit of what a couple can handle in very difficult conditions, not just at sea but at anchor. The Pardey's discussed this in one of their books when evaluating the Cabo San Lucas Debacle of Dec-1982 where 29 of 45 anchored cruising boats were pushed ashore in an unexpected gale. The observation they made is that couples did OK on boats up to about 37'. Longer than that they didn't fare well unless there was a larger crew aboard. Other sailors there agreed with their conclusion.

While they Med is not the most difficult place to sail, it can get really ugly very quickly.


There are plenty of folks out sailing bigger boats. Most of them have most of a decade's experience. Those that don't are getting by on luck, or more accurately haven't gotten unlucky.
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Old 05-10-2024, 22:27   #14
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Re: Buying a boat... A noobs ideas! HELP ;-)

Adeilie

I can’t disagree more. We sail a 17 metre monohull as. couple in early 60s and after owning 4 smaller boats previously, this is so much easier to manage and sail. Much of that is attributed to the way it is equipped and how she sails. Everything on a bigger boat happens at a slower more manageable pace.

We just spent several days with a couple who sail a 37 Jeanneu and their life is more difficult because of the size of the boat, no water maker, no freezer, swinging at anchor, sleeping arrangement, dingy size limitations, the list goes on.

We live on the boat, we don’t camp on it, so the boat needs to have many of the comforts and conveniences you have at home or else this lifestyle will get old very quickly.
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Old 05-10-2024, 23:42   #15
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Re: Buying a boat... A noobs ideas! HELP ;-)

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Adeilie

I can’t disagree more. We sail a 17 metre monohull as. couple in early 60s and after owning 4 smaller boats previously, this is so much easier to manage and sail. Much of that is attributed to the way it is equipped and how she sails. Everything on a bigger boat happens at a slower more manageable pace.

We just spent several days with a couple who sail a 37 Jeanneu and their life is more difficult because of the size of the boat, no water maker, no freezer, swinging at anchor, sleeping arrangement, dingy size limitations, the list goes on.

We live on the boat, we don’t camp on it, so the boat needs to have many of the comforts and conveniences you have at home or else this lifestyle will get old very quickly.
As you say you have owned 4 boats previously and I assume have had several decades of experience that give you the skills and judgement to stay out of trouble.

The issues you ascribe to the smaller boat are all convenience issues. In a gale or worse at anchor which would be the easier boat to stay in control of and keep safe?

For people with decades of experience it might be a wash. For newbies, probably the smaller boat. Newbies need boats that will be forgiving of their mistakes.
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