Bumps on a steel keel - PICS

[plpioko]

Hi,
sorry that I have opened a new thread just to publish the pics to my previous post but my previous post has gone off topic and I have a feeling that very few people are following it right now (so if I had published there no one would even notice)

So according to what I posted in http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...el-158208.html these are the pictures of bumps that I mentioned. Do you these dents and cracks is something normal/acceptable?






To that comes a little crack on the keel:




and finally the keel's frontal view:


Piotr

[PDScott]

Hard to say for sure but it appears to be a water egress behind fairing compound. Can you get a small putty knife behind the flaking? If so I would suggest removing all he fairing and starting again. Peter

[captjcook]

Hard to say for sure...looks as though water froze and stretched the metal to make bulges even create tearing...

[AmericanVagrant]

You'll need to re-weld that crack anyway, so would probably make sense to cut out a few square inches and see what is going on in the area behind it. If water is causing this, I'd expect to see rust or some other indicator on the backside.

[Delancey]

Looks like a frozen water crack. How many winters did the boat spend outside?

Bumps seem like they are towards the front of the keel, is there a hole in the cabin top for a keel stepped mast in this location?

[chris95040]

Originally Posted by Delancey

The notion that photos of some lumpy keel would be required to make this assessment comes from someone without knowledge of steel fabrication...

....without insisting photographs or more information were necessary to make this determination.

....seemed to agree it was a non-issue and didn't require more information or photos either.

[brianlara 3]

Exactly what American Vagrant said. I have professionally had to cut rust out of motor vehicle chassis and bodies and whilst it looks like bog filler there other integrity indicators also. Possible that some of the other bulges were from molten lead being poured into a keel whick was too thinly plated.
A tool for you: Use the handle/top of a screw driver on ALL of the irregularities the same way a surveror checks cars & boats for filler.
Tapping on good material produces a sound which you will come to identify. If there IS bog there you ears will find it.
What Vagrant said, you have to weld anyway and if after you cut the suspect spots with AN ANGLE GRINDER, no gas, you find lead, or bog or oil or whatever youll fix the cause, weld a new plate on (butt or overlap not much diff & overlap can be brazed if you wish...butt weld a little harder, TRY if you cant o stay away from oxy-acetylene) on everythings hunky dorey.
Plenty of help on CF. PM's and phone calls etc...fear not at this stage.
Cheers.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Hi, sorry for all of the controversy surrounding this potential boat (buy). And if this info is a repeat of what's been bludgeoned to death, previously, my apoligies. I kind of avoided the other thread, as it got out of control before I even saw it as having been started.

That said, pics, or no, you're never really going to know about the integrity of the steel, until you hire a metallurgist/forensic engineer, to come out and:
- Take a close look at things where they stand, defects & all.
- Take some metal samples to his shop; from the sections of the keel where things both: seem awry, & where they "appear to be fine". So that he can determine on the molecular level, what's going on, & it's likely causes. Plus how significant or not it is. That, as well as how prevalent & widespread it is or isn't.

The suggestion about tapping with the butt of a screwdriver’s a good one. Especially in order to look for more voids, as well as areas of thick fairing compound. As both are areas which would bear closer investigation.
For either can hide patched over rust/rusting spots (or nothing).

More specifically, either;
- Areas which have rusted in the past, were ground down, & then were patched with fairing compound.
- Or were rusting, & thus were cut out. And then patched with small pieces of new plate, welded on, post pour. Ones which possibly rusted away from the inside, which would be a symptom of a trend that’s truly "Bad Juju", as Tarzan would say.
For if there’s water in there, in various, unknown locations & amounts, then things will (probably) rust from the inside out. As to whether or not that’s the case, such is where NDT comes in (below).

Also, completely filling in the void that's left when patching a keel, post pour, is nigh on impossible, as I understand it. And thus it leaves an area vulnerable to future rusting from the inside. Kind of unpreventably so.

Regardless, I’d say that you don’t, under any circumstances, want there to be, or have been, water in between the lead & the steel. And to eliminate uncertainty regarding that, you need the services of a professional in order to determine as much. And if so, to what degree. Ditto on judging the quality of the plating material & whether it's thickness is appropriate.

That, plus the owner/builder should have a copy of the boat's blueprints & specs, which will state what type & thicknesses of metal should have been used where. Use them as a guide to have a pro check out the boat's construction.

It would probably help you: In order to learn more about the boat. And when interviewing professionals prior to hiring them to come inspect things. To do some studying on (NDT) Non-destructive Testing. And there are even forums which are dedicated (mostly) solely to such.
MyNDT Forum of Nondestructive Testing (NDT) Discussions in Ultrasonic, Eddy Current, Radiography ...
Olympus - Non Destructive Ultrasonic Test Equipment, Ultrasonic, Phased Array, Microscopes, Thickness Gages, Flaw Detectors, Innov-X, NDT, Remote Visual Inspection, Eddy Current, X-ray Fluorescence, X-ray Diffraction

Also, & this may have been mentioned before, but it’d likely be worth getting to know your way around the Metal Boat Society https://metalboatsociety.wildapricot.org/ & also Boat Design Forums

And this bit is just an opinion from a; tool guy, with a lot of formal engineering, & plenty of the hands on sort as well.
But if the keel plating is tearing already, & is as thin in real life as it appears to be in the pictures, then barring a Lot of assurances from a few different metal, & metal boat experts, then I, personally, would be leary of trusting it. Even if then.
As it sounds like you already if you are too.

So from a guy who's been burned, the couple of times he didn't trust his gut about boats. Trust yours!
As at the end of the day, it's your heiney, & those of your loved ones onboard that are on the line. Not to mention your wallet.

As a partingl thought, in an article about yacht refitting, & or buying boats, Nigel Calder has said “If there’s anything structural wrong, just walk away”. A Refit Reality Check | Cruising World
For fiscally, & labor wise, such things just get too big too easily, breaking your wallet & heart along the way.
BTDT, & it Hurts!

[brianlara 3]

Having read what Uncivilised wrote i began to suspect that these pictures were NOT of your keel but on a boat you are thinking of buying.
If its yours run with Unciviliseds advice to the letter and hope to God that the internal framing is sound.
If on the other heand you are thinking of buying this boat then id suggest you back off without regret or reservation. FWIW.
Cheers bl

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by chris95040

What's your point? Hot metal stretches, it doesn't crack. OP in the OP never said anything about cracks from freezing water. The current condition of the keel has nothing to do with pouring the lead as was the question asked and answered.

Looking at the bottom of the crack where it forks makes me worried about metal fatigue, hence my question about how many seasons this boat has been outside. How many freeze thaw cycles?

I'll repeat my original caveat - as long as the boat was designed and built properly it will be fine. Like UNCIVILIZED said you won't be able to determine that from photos, you need to examine the plans and check if the plate thickness is to spec.

Assuming it was designed and built properly I don't see anything here that can't be fixed. Surveys discover all kinds of issues, prices are adjusted, and defects remedied. Happens all the time.

[HappyMdRSailor]

Sure looks like freeze/thaw, and or possible corrosion expansion...

This wouldn't put me off to the point of being a deal breaker... But I'm also fairly familiar with the pointy end of a wire feed...

As suggested, the only way to know for sure is to cut the plating off... If it's simply the plating, weld anew... If you have more deterioration of the support structure webbing, it's simply just a bigger job...

The problem will lie in the capacity for avoiding moisture intrusion in the future... Easy to do in a newly plated section with an epoxy fill... But if the corrosion and moisture exists inside in areas that you do not open up and get clean... Filling those areas is not going to stop further corrosion...

[HappyMdRSailor]

Oh...

And I'd just buy it for the dolly even if I was tossing the boat... It's hella sweet...

[florchidman]

First, I should state that I dearly love steel boats.....and wood boats, and aluminum boats and fiberglass boats. I draw the line on Ferro Cement boats. Like is too short for putting up with ferro cement.
I have had several large steel boats and most can usually be fixed by a competent welder who knows how to run a bead on a low enough temperature to prevent thinner steel plate from warping. A good local steel distributor can usually recommend a good marine engineer or metallurgist to evaluate your hull. They have testing tools and chemicals that are invaluable. Their cost will be small...and I promise it will be the least expensive thing about this or any boat.
I hope it works for you...but if it does not, think of it as a beautiful woman who you yearned for, but then you discovered she had STDs....sometimes beauty is best viewed from afar.

[brianlara 3]

Florchidmad.
A damned clever bit of advice........until the analogy bit. OMG!

[Cheechako]

Looks like frozen water expansion to me. The welding I can see looks a bit poor quality also.