Broker and owner withhold information.

[hellosailor]

"Like all trades, some are good, some are bad, but it is wrong to tarnish them all as bad. I know several brokers that I consider to be very ethical."
I think you could replace the term "brokers" with anything from "tailors" to "surgeons" and the same concept applies. Unfortunately, brokers are among the less closely regulated and monitored, like painters and driveway contractors. And "salesmen" in general are out there to make sales in the short term. Very few are trying to build long-term customer bases, and arguably that's not the way to make money in sales, most of the time.
An ethical, competent broker (or painter, or diesel mechanic, or ever dog walker) is a damned hard thing to find, and those phone numbers get put in a special place!

[Catboat Willy]

Of course if the boat was insured and written off, you will never be able to insure it again at a reasonable insurance rate. If ever. Then you'll spend another $40-50K getting her seaworthy. Spend your money on a boat you can use now cause buying a boat a piece at a time is a very expensive deal. Ask me how I know !

[bimini blue]

Run swim paddle away as fast as possible
The boats name should be Fubar

[DeValency]

If you have $200K to invest and all the time and interest in the world to run a DIY project for few years in the boat repairs, offer the scammer $1 for the wreck and make sure there aren’t 30 liens on her...
Or better just pay half of it for a good boat from an honest seller.

The discussion here is interesting but on this particular case the answer is very simple - get another dream...

[Lowcountry]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

I’m glad you didn’t use broker and ethical in the same sentence

As a broker, I resent this. There are good and bad in every profession. Your implication is that brokers are inherently unethical, and this is absolutely not true.

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by Lowcountry

As a broker, I resent this. There are good and bad in every profession. Your implication is that brokers are inherently unethical, and this is absolutely not true.

Fully agree. As a sailor for over 30 years with more than 6 boats deals and endless number of boats checked, most of my experiences with brokers were excellent! They were very professional and helped me in getting the most accurate information and integrity even when they represented the seller side only.

As with any service provider, listen well and beware of any red flags. If you’re not sure just walk away.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Lowcountry

As a broker, I resent this. There are good and bad in every profession. Your implication is that brokers are inherently unethical, and this is absolutely not true.

Agreed that there one can find ethical and professional brokers in every service sector, the key is seek them out.

One must understand that brokers and agents are motivated to close a sale, be they representing the seller or the buyer. Keep that perspective in mind.

The key as a buyer or seller is to do your due diligence in locating brokers or agents and to keep your eyes wide open. It helps if you have been there and done that numerous times as one learns to recognize a professional when one has time to have discussions with one and to have developed a network of persons that can provide referrals to the select great brokers. One also learns to spot an unprofessional and / or unethical broker, i.e., a broker that is fixated on obtaining a commission, instead of completing a transaction that fulfills the buyers long-term requirements and will be accepted by the seller. When a broker explains why a buyer should not be interested in pursuing a deal or in seeking advantageous terms then one may be on to an especially good broker or agent; one who puts your interests ahead of their financial interests. Keep in mind your requirements of what you are buying, those are objective matters, do not fixate on subjective matters, e.g., its a boat, don't become enamoured with the object. [Keep telling yourself This vessel may sink, that tends to allow you some emotional distance].

My undergraduate degree was in Finance and Property Management, I did not pursue a profession in real estate but had keen knowledge in that field. At an early point of my career I was in the role of being a finance manager for a major biotechnology firm in the S.F. Bay Area, the company was considering a sale / leaseback of its headquarters - R&D campus as an alternative to a follow on equity offering. We brought in senior brokers from four leading commercial real estate brokerage firms to have them pitch being a selling broker, the most junior of the four brokers was a college friend / former roommate [who was to become my Best Man at my wedding] who at that time was perhaps 30 years old and just a couple of years into his real estate career with Marcus and Millichap at the Palo Alto headquarters. My "best buddy" was the only broker to advocate that the biotech company NOT sell its campus under the existing market conditions and based on a thorough analysis of the company's present financial position [substantial liquidity in cash / marketable securities] and future projected funds flow. He indicated that if the company desired to sell / leaseback that it would be a simple transaction to execute because our company was a high quality tenant, but that it would be better to defer such to a future date. The CEO, CFO, Counsel and the Board of Directors were truly amazed that a young, prospective selling broker would advocate to not sell the property and thereby forego the opportunity to earn a commission on about $35 million in property and to have spent days analyzing the company's financial position and cash flow projections in preparation for making his recommendations before soliciting a listing agreement. All the other brokers had analyzed only the company's campus real estate itself and comparative lease terms for similar office / research campuses. To say that he had earned the respect of all is an understatement, including the respect of the senior management of the competing major commercial brokerages. He is a unique real estate broker, personally for several decades now, continuously holding broker licenses in all 50 states, the District of Columbia and British Columbia, Canada and has concluded transactions nearing $2 billion during his career, almost all of which have been in his sole person, commercial brokerage firm [no other brokers or agents in his company].


One of my college roommate's father owned a large marina and the adjoining office and retail complexes in the San Francisco Bay Area and also had a new yacht dealership, a yacht maintenance facility, a chandlery, and was also a broker of previously owned yachts [primarily to provide purchase and resale services to the clients who had slips in his marina, or who would purchase a new yacht from his dealership and need to then make a market for their prior boat]. We would travel from college in San Luis Obispo to the Bay Area from time to time to visit him and go boating and he would talk about his business activities teaching us the ways of the business world; we particularly liked being able to take out new boats from his dealership [trying to return them unscratched or dinged, Dad not being a happy sailor if the new boat did not show well upon our return] and to enjoy the perks of dining at his upscale restaurant and being served private [read underaged] drinks at his bars. Back in the days, when I had a full head of longish hair.

[puget_sailor]

To the OP; Most Hurricane boats are being sold as-is. The boats are damaged and selling for mere pennies of their undamaged value. Some are fixable, some aren't. If you are seriously interested in this boat, I suggest you take a trip down to the BVI to personally inspect it, talk to people on the ground doing what you are thinking of doing, assess your options, and make your decision from there. From what another poster said, the situation is very dynamic and extends beyond what can be seen in a web posting. If you decide to do it, you will know what you are biting off. If you decide not do, at least you had a mini-vacation and helped the local economy recover from a massive natural disaster. Keep your options open if you do go there, and you may find that even if this isn't a project you want to take on, there may be others that you do.

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by Flybird

I have been interested in buying this boat, Ayacanora , who were damaged by the hurricane Irma:
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...aw-72-3491969/

During my research, I have found this survey report, that describes the damage on the boat:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/129d...PPgguV2U4jHPdk

The survey clearly reveals much more severe damage than what is listed in the ad. I have been in contact with both the broker, EasysaleUSA, and the owner of this boat, but they refuse to acknowledge the damages described in the survey report and refuse to change the ad so that it gives a fair description of the boat and its damages.

The most serious damages mentioned in the survey report but not in the ad are roughly these:
1. Leaks in both integrated fuel tanks. Some diesel has leaked on the ground and a substantial amount inside the ship, that has soaked the floor and carpet in the kitchen and saloon.
2. The tanks need to be cut out in order to both weld the cracks in the hull and repair the tanks.
3. There are two depressions in the hull, one which is 4' by12'.
4. The main furler boom is bent.

The diesel in the bilge apparently is at a high level and can damage electric installations, tubes etc. Most important is that it is a potential fire hazard. Besides that, a lot of the interior needs probably to be changed, due to damage or smell that is not possible to get rid of. Aparently the diesel is still in the bilge.
The depressions in the hull is a very severe damage that can turn out to be very costly to repair.
The cracks can not be welded as simply as put in the ad, as it involves a cut out and rebuild of the tanks.

In my opinion it is very unfair and very unethical, and probably also illegal, to withhold such information. But what can I do about it?

Surely if you are interested in a yacht, damaged or not, you would go and inspect it yourself.
I personally never had much luck with surveyors, I am a shipwright, boatbuilder myself and still need time to find and evaluate hidden problems.
Not much point in arguing with the broker or the seller, if you dont like what you yourself see either get a 3rd or 4th oppinion if you are not sure about something or just walk away if repairs are not economical.

[epoxyman]

about 10 years ago I wrote an article for Soundings magazine called "The Broker Did What?". This is where a broker from Annapolis intentionally lied about a boat and withheld information that put my families lives in jeopardy.
I was able to obtain documented evidence of this brokers intentional deceit and the long and short of it (read the article if you want the full story) was that in Maryland as in most states there are no laws that require boat brokers to be truthful. If you have documented evidence that shows they intentionally lied you can go after their Accreditation and you can have them listed on Boat US's website as brokers to avoid (blacklisted). However, the long and the short is buying a boat is not like buying a car or a house, you are basically on your own - that is why it is so important to hire a GOOD surveyor that is not affiliated with the broker. END OF STORY

[cblurton]

"Buyer beware"

Thankfully, that doctrine doesn't always apply.

What are the exceptions to the doctrine of caveat emptor?


Consent by fraud or concealment. When the consent of the buyer in a contract of sale, is obtained by the seller by fraud or when the seller knowingly conceals the defect, which could not be discovered on a reasonable examination (i.e., there is some latent defect), the doctrine of caveat emptor does not apply.

https://gradestack.com/CA-CPT/Condit...6079-study-wtw

[Flybird]

I thank you all for the replies. I do not have time to go into detail at the moment, but I would like to give you a brief update.
I have given up this project. But I am still very unhappy with the broker and I think it is my obligation to not let that just pass, because I gave up the project.
What he is doing is fraud, if not legally then morally.
Since last time i posted here, he is now refusing to send me a copy of the registration of the boat or any identification number.
Also I spoke to another person wha had asked for additional info about the damages, and their answer was, that there was no additional information available.
This is obviously and upright lie.

[DeValency]

Flybird,
“Being angry is punishing yourself for the stupidity of others”

Move on and learn one more lesson here. I have experienced poor integrity of owners and brokers and even a financing company from NY that tried to sell me a boat based on fraudulent loan documentation and lien/mortgage registered by the Coast Guard - they are now under the FBI investigation...
Just remember that too good to be true offers are usually untrue... Yet, there are good deals out there, keep your eyes and ears open - it takes time and patience.

[Flybird]

Originally Posted by DeValency

Flybird,
“Being angry is punishing yourself for the stupidity of others”

Move on and learn one more lesson here.

The purpose of my life is not to make it as easy as possible. I want quality, and quality is standing up against what is wrong. Walking away is letting your fellow citizens down.

[hellosailor]

Flybird-
"he is now refusing to send me a copy of the registration of the boat or any identification number."
And that's arguably CORRECT. If he sends you a copy of the registration, you can contact the owner directly and bypass the broker. And the owner might not want to be bothered, that's one reason he hired a broker.
So arguably? That's none of your business until after your offer has been accepted.

Deception, fraud, conspiracy to defraud (owner+broker working together?), and then in some states there are "reliance" suits as well. The thing is, if the guy only wasted your time and didn't actually unload a boat on you, good luck proving any of it. So you've got limited options.