Bombigher - Shpountz is a good idea?

[Landlubber77]

GaffRigSaltie!

Thanks for Your replay, I agree with all Your advice. You gave me back somehow the trust in wooden boats.

One goal was to start this thread to get know, what is the real capability of a Shpountz, if I think on it, like an adventurer boat. What could a Shpountz's performance offer, If I would like to sail singel hand with Her in:
- tropical waters;
- moderate waters;
- subarctic waters (Greenland or other side: Campbell-island)?

What is the capability in rough seas, freaky waves, storms?

Many historical explorer sailed around the Globe on wooden boats, and many of them are still unhurt!

But I do not know, how can I count with Shpountz (architecture and material), that's why I asked my original questions.

At last I have to apologize for my swindle, as I wrote it in one of my last replies, my budget is empty, so before the Shpountz-investment starts, need to persuade Fortuna about the projekt.

As She would consent, I will appear again!

Thanks for the inspiration and information, Your ship is beautiful - FWFS!

[Wckoek]

Originally Posted by GaffRigSaltie

Hi Landlubber,

As the owner of a Bombigher Spray Dream for 13 years, I think I can help a little.

First, let nobody tell you that this or that is impossible. All you need is the passion, i.e. the will to learn as you go, over years. I had this boat built (by Ultramarine) as my first wooden boat with no prior knowledge and acquired the skills. I love it. Wood requires little maintenance in the first 10 years of a new boat's life. You'll be ready.

But if you want instant gratification, go for production.

Otherwise, what will happen is that you will use the engine a lot the first few months, then start using the main and jib, then little by little more and more sails in more and more wind. You will take your time and start with coastal navigation -one day hops, then two, then three. In that scenario with modern weather forecasting, copping a storm is pretty unlikely.

Again: Just take your time and put safety first. A production boat would be no different (especially as they're often not heavy displacement hulls i.e. not safer).

With regards to repairs: Learning to measure and cut pieces cedar and teak accurately is not hard. Neither is how to screw and glue properly (the glue being epoxy resin, the same material used in fiberglass boats anyway). If I did it, so can you. We've been doing it for 2,000 years!

But it does require reading books, experimenting in the shed, watching youtube videos, going on the wooden boat forum and Facebook wooden boat group, asking questions. Find a boat building school, they have awesome continuous learning and summer programmes. Find wooden boat owners who will only be too happy to help (case in point lol). Find my handle on Facebook, I'll introduce you to a few.

Also, these boats come with extremely detailed plans on multiple A1 sheets showing every last piece of everything down to the last block.

Regarding building your own: The majority of the 200+ Shpountz that are out there have been built by amateurs (only 1 has ever sunk btw, called Le Rapaz, after being abandoned for years). I know a Dutch guy building one right now. Lionel Mallard, the owner of Ultramarine, did exactly that 30 years ago. Daniel Bombigher wrote a 200 page step by step guide on how to do it. But it does take years and requires huge commitment. You have to want to become a boat builder first. That fire in your belly, you know what I mean?

Now regarding size: The 44-40 (so named after the Winchester model 1873, his favourite rifle) is a 50 footer, 60 feet if you count the bowsprit. It's a lot of boat to handle, no different than a Beneteau. If that's what your passion dictates, do it. Plenty have, believe me. But learn seriously. The dividends are magnificent. These boats are simply not in the same league as le plastique fantastique.

Amities,

Gaff Rig Saltie (ca c'est untraduisible !)

Hi Gaff Rig Salty, you must be the owner of Kass Dei II, it was nice to see you here and someone with experience with Daniel's design.

I agree with most part of your comment except that I don't think any boat over 25' is within a persons ability to build without much experience, I know someone spend over a year to build a 20' boat with just a cabin without furnishing, I think Tender Dream or Cute Dream is within the edge of an amateur's ability, we know Joshua Slocum rebuild and sail Spray singlehandedly but that wasn't normally the case. You need the time, the space, to do it. I am in no means of discouraging self build, in fact I have contemplate building boats by stitch and glue just to learn the process, I know then it's even a major undertaking.

I like Shpountz like everyone who posted in this thread but it is a very expensive boat to build today, and pretty heavy for its size. I am planning to have one build, not the Shpountz but the Ladies series, either the 40 or 30 feeter.

I have some question on my mind as well, gaff rig saltie, since I am contemplating either to go with gaff or Bermuda.
Do you think the gaff main on Spray Dream a little bit on the large side to be single handed?
Do you think in your experience that the Spray Dream is a little too light for extended cruising? How was her speed?
How do you feel about her carrying capacity, like fresh water, or how many people you think it can carry comfortably on a voyage?

I am asking this because I just need a 30 footer, until I realize if it was too small for occasional guest and I have to have further thoughts on what I should carry in a voyage.

We who like Bombigher's designs must be the bunch who are into classic boats.

[GaffRigSaltie]

Hi Wckoek,

My boat is called Solaris. Kass Dei actually does a lot more extensive cruising than me. My turn will come :-)

The gaff main turned out to be perfect for single handling. With a 3+ multiplier block on the main, you know it's time to reef when it gets hard to pull. I have sailed in heavy weather and never felt like installing a winch. That said I do exercise physically.

Re: cruising ability, she's 3.5t of boat + 3.5t of displacement keel. This means riding on, not ploughing into waves, and extreme stability. Upside 1: You have a dry deck (also because protected by high gunwales contrary to modern flush decks). Downside 1: riding is more motion than ploughing. Upside 2: Solaris self-steers at all points of sail if you care to learn how to balance your sails and rudder. Remember Slocum wrote he didn't touch the wheel for thousands of miles? Same ability. Windvane or autohelm unnecessary. Downside 2: She does not turn on a dime under sail like a deep keeler. Forget about regattas!

In terms of speed, 5 knots is the norm, 6 in fresh weather, I've done 7 in a half gale but any over-canvassed boat is inherently unsafe.

Solaris takes 200L of water and 200L of fuel. There is easily space for twice that much -in a custom build that is no problem. My Yanmar has hot water ports.

In terms of capacity, she's comfortable with me and my 2 kids for a few days. She's right for a couple but not more for long periods I think.

Look, there's a guy on this site who crossed the Pacific twice on 24 footers. People have kayaked from Australia to NZ -1,200NM at the edge of the roaring fourties. In my opinion, derelict maintenance, poor knowledge of one's boat and bad seamanship sink boats rather than this or that design feature or Harken gizmo.

But everyone's different

[Wckoek]

You are the third person who sailed Spray Dream that I know, isn't there a Japanese family down under who sailed a Spray dream too?
There must be a reason that the Spray is so popular in the new builds of Bombigher's design. If it's better than 5 knots then it's good enough for a regular cruiser.

You guys in Australia do experience gale like we do in the tropics, so I guess the sail is easy enough to handle.
Of course there are people doing things in boats of different sizes, practically many marinas only accept boats 10m or upper or they only charge that way, and insurance only cover over 10m boats for extended ocean from my area, practically 33' or somewhere around 6-7 tonne would be starting point for extended cruisers.

When you have yours build, have you considered other Bombigher's design like the cruising trim of Dixie Girl, Dixie Belle? It might be a toss up since they are of similar size, hard chine vs round bilge, Bermuda ketch vs gaff yawl.
I am torn to go larger with lady of Bermuda even since it might worth fork out more in case I do carry guest. The Spray can be even a little small for 2 persons in a fortnight right?

[Wckoek]

Answering my own question, I realize it is possibly difficult and even dangerous to drop a gaff main while managing a gybe on sea, singlehanded thinking how Taberly was lost, and how sudden a rain squall can happen in our waters in monsoon season.

[GaffRigSaltie]

I'm not sure I follow your gybe-and-drop argument. Single handing, my answer in case of sudden danger has always been to switch on the engine and put the boat in irons. Then there's time. Also, the gaff is pretty heavy - the main drops on its own into the lazy jacks when you release the halliards. These rigging plans were refine over hundreds of years...

Regarding size, go with what's comfortable. Note Spray Dreams have open plan interiors on purpose. If you need privacy, she's the wrong boat for you.

Dixie Belle is a simpler and way cheaper build, easier to sail, probably cheaper to maintain. A super interesting boat for sure.

[Wckoek]

Gaff surely is refined over the ages, and more comfortable with weight and wind distributed lower. In reefing, it is point reefing with lazy jack or roller reefing, I am thinking of later on my last post on the issue of lowering main on sea.
Lazy jack would be simpler, but there is risk of the sheet tangle with the jack in strong wind.
Like you said, the gaff is heavier, like over a hundred pounds? Maybe electric winch is needed, I don't know. But on the other hand bermuda comes with more strings than gaffer, and gaffer definitely looks "right".

[Wckoek]

I understand that it make more sense to have open plan on a 33' boat or it would be darker underneath and poorer ventilation.
Hmm, the larger boat is definitely more comfortable and faster and maybe it is still an easily manageable size I can go with it.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Wckoek

Like you said, the gaff is heavier, like over a hundred pounds? Maybe electric winch is needed, I don't know. But on the other hand bermuda comes with more strings than gaffer, and gaffer definitely looks "right".

I just wonder if there are boats our there with gaffs made of carbon. Could be useful to make that as light as possible.

One architect with interesting designs that likes gaff rigs is Patrick Balta. He has some cool (and fast) looking boats:

Balta Patrick Architecte naval, architecture navale, Motor yacht, yacht design, catamaran

[Wckoek]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

I just wonder if there are boats our there with gaffs made of carbon. Could be useful to make that as light as possible.

One architect with interesting designs that likes gaff rigs is Patrick Balta. He has some cool (and fast) looking boats:

Balta Patrick Architecte naval, architecture navale, Motor yacht, yacht design, catamaran

That is the first time I heard of Balta Patrick, it is about as good as a perfect marriage of classic looks and modern technology can be, but like most performance boat it looks like it had less internal space for a given size and a sail more suited for regatta and coastal sailing. It is a characteristic, not a drawback, but they look like they are more affordable to build for sure.

Maybe carbon gaff can be ordered, I'm not sure if it is as durable, but sometimes characteristics and weakness goes hand in hand, like there is sacrifice with cruising comfort, space with performance, you can have larger and more sail area but not necessarily the ease of control.
Some weakness can be alleviated with technology, carbon gaff, electric winch, but certainly cant be cured without taking away their characteristics.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Wckoek

That is the first time I heard of Balta Patrick, it is about as good as a perfect marriage of classic looks and modern technology can be, but like most performance boat it looks like it had less internal space for a given size and a sail more suited for regatta and coastal sailing. It is a characteristic, not a drawback, but they look like they are more affordable to build for sure.

The idea Balta has (and he is not the only one), is that if you are going to cruise by yourself, or just as a couple you don't need that much space. But waterline length does give you higher speeds.
Hence his designs are long, and light. And indeed, you get a 32 foot interior in a 40 foot boat. But that sails better than trying to do this the other way round, which is what most big yards do nowadays.

[Wckoek]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

The idea Balta has (and he is not the only one), is that if you are going to cruise by yourself, or just as a couple you don't need that much space. But waterline length does give you higher speeds.
Hence his designs are long, and light. And indeed, you get a 32 foot interior in a 40 foot boat. But that sails better than trying to do this the other way round, which is what most big yards do nowadays.

I understand, the bulb, fin keel just didn't look like an extended cruiser to me, I don't mean that they aren't seaworthy, just that the ballast wasn't part of the structure.
There are racers that made more comfortable as cruisers, and there are heavy cruisers that made faster.
For me, like a 2-3 week run to kaohshiung maybe comfort and stability is more important than speed since over a longer distance you couldn't possibly get much more than 7-8 knots max.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Wckoek

I understand, the bulb, fin keel just didn't look like an extended cruiser to me, I don't mean that they aren't seaworthy, just that the ballast wasn't part of the structure.

Why does it need to be?

Balta has a whole page dedicated to explaining (with math) that if properly constructed even the worst case collision will not tear the keel off...

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

These are definitely NOT going to be easy boats to handle. At least, not when compared to a simple, modern sloop rig. I would not even try to sail one alone. In fact, I would probably want a crew of at least 3-4 to handle the larger ones.

I have sailed classic boats, and I think you may be overestimating the effort needed. I think that you first have to consider how you sail those boats.

On a modern yacht typically you motor out of the harbor, then you head in to the wind, set the sails, and then set a course.
Because you usually cannot keep heading upwind for a long time you want to set the sails quickly.

But a classic gaff rig does not require you to head up wind to set the sails. So for example, on the Oosterschelde, a 3 mast schooner of 50m the skipper would just set his course after leaving port. Then the sails would be set one after another. With powered winches 2 persons could get that boat under sail. (The Oosterschelde doesn't have powered winches so we need at least three bodies on each halyard...)

I think that is the point some made here: It is doable to sail such a gaff rigged schooner design shorthanded, if you rethink a bit how you go about it.

Whether it's worth it, is another question...

[Shpountz73]

These are definitely NOT going to be easy boats to handle. At least, not when compared to a simple, modern sloop rig. I would not even try to sail one alone. In fact, I would probably want a crew of at least 3-4 to handle the larger ones

This are very easy boats to handle alone.
I sail almost alone !
I don't go out for an hour or two but I sail for days in very shape and confortable conditions.
For sure I don't make regattas

Cheers
Francois