Boat as an investment?

[Lost Horizons]

Originally Posted by Alex_V

What are your thoughts?

Investment means acquiring an income producing asset. Acquiring an asset that may appreciate in value is called speculation.

[SteveSadler]

I recently did an extensive search for the Jeanneau 49ds I finally found.
What was surprising to me was that a boat 8 yrs old was asking close to the price of a boat 20 yrs old or more. It seems that like a car, it depreciates quickly until 8-10 yrs old then depreciation slows dramatically and price reflects its condition more than its age.
For those with refurbishing skills, real bargains are to be had with ex charter boats as the systems are well maintained, but the traffic is hard on the aesthetics.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by SteveSadler

I recently did an extensive search for the Jeanneau 49ds I finally found.
What was surprising to me was that a boat 8 yrs old was asking close to the price of a boat 20 yrs old or more. It seems that like a car, it depreciates quickly until 8-10 yrs old then depreciation slows dramatically and price reflects its condition more than its age.
For those with refurbishing skills, real bargains are to be had with ex charter boats as the systems are well maintained, but the traffic is hard on the aesthetics.

I believe this to be true. 10mths ago i was looking at many boats such as the one mentioned.

I purchased a Catalina 470. In Australia in 2002 this boat was selling for 650k aud, i purchased it for 180kaud (135k usd at the time) with 850hrs on the yanmar, it was immaculate.
Theres alot of value out there if you allow the new buyer to take a majority of the depreciation hit.

It's rare you make money on a boat, and I wont on my purchase but you can limit loss by purchasing a boat with a large percentage of depreciation already realized.

Heres another way to look at it. I agree an investment is an asset , something that puts a dollar in your pocket. My boat is my home, this allows me to rent my house out, one could argue that the boat turns the house (a liability) into a asset ,or the boat is a asset due to cashflow the house is able realize because of the boat?

[Juho]

I heard of a person who bought multiple Nauticats during depression, when people had to sell their boats, polished them a bit, and sold them when times were better. I don't know how profitable that was.

[GTom]

Originally Posted by Lost Horizons

Investment means acquiring an income producing asset. Acquiring an asset that may appreciate in value is called speculation.

Income is relative: provided you want to sail 10 weeks a year, that's about 15-20k$ charter fees on a 40' mono. An old vessel that doesn't depreciate too much, based in a reasonably priced marina will cost you less. Everyone has to do the maths considering the real-life local circumstances. Provided there are no major trouble (severe osmosis/delamination due to mistreatment, accidents) I expect my own break-even around 4 weeks/year of sailing(!) in the North Atlantic for a 30-33'-er. Every single additional day I am sailing is an "income".

Originally Posted by Juho

I heard of a person who bought multiple Nauticats during depression, when people had to sell their boats, polished them a bit, and sold them when times were better. I don't know how profitable that was.

That's serious, imagine how much mooring fees one should fork out for those cats... Of course no issue if he owned a yard nearby.

[danielamartindm]

A recreational boat is a love affair, if you're lucky. For dollars and cents, it's an insane proposition. To me, it's a quality of life issue, a chance to understand, and to be a part of the natural world. Isn't that worth the price of admission? You can build a business around it with a six pack if you have to, and perhaps even net a modest income from it; but that is hardly an "investment." When you invest in a mutual fund, you don't have to invest sweat, as well as your dollars. Sweat for pure enjoyment is acceptable to most; sweat for income is a different proposition. It really depends upon your finances.

[robbinsfamily]

I think everyone is missing the cost of living on the land. For me it's New Zealand. Land and food and boats are expensive. I've rented my house, purchased a boat I know I can sell for more in NZ and my overall lifestyle will run at a profit, given that my house is 4 times the price of my boat and I have no dept.

[hafa]

Originally Posted by Alex_V

Will a mass produced boat hold value better then a "custom"?

I'd wager that parts for popular mass-produced boats may be a bit less expensive and certainly easier to find than for one-offs, thus somewhat lowering maintenance time and cost. In terms of holding value, a well-regarded mass-produced boat is likely to do better than an unknown "custom" boat.

Originally Posted by Alex_V

Fiberglass hull wont scare people as much as a steel boat?

Most likely.

Originally Posted by Alex_V

Keeping size between 30 - 40' as in most popular size range?

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The joy-per-dollar ratio goes way, way up with smaller and cheaper boats.

^ THIS.

Originally Posted by Alex_V

Stay clear of basket case "deals". Pay extra for an upper end of a well up kept boat or shoot for something in the middle of the range?

Shoot for the middle and hope you hit towards the top. Folks who have a cherry and know it are just as bad as those with a lemon.

Originally Posted by robbinsfamily

...and I have no dept.

Is not having a department a good thing?

[Juho]

Originally Posted by GTom

That's serious, imagine how much mooring fees one should fork out for those cats... Of course no issue if he owned a yard nearby.

I'd guess the boats were on dry land. If one would store them longer than one year, the cheapest approach would probably be to transport them to your own backyard (if you have one, or some other empty lot, close enough to the sea).

[Paul J. Nolan]

Only Barack Obama would call a boat an investment. Whenever he spent other people's money he called it an "investment."

[Bleemus]

Originally Posted by Paul J. Nolan

Only Barack Obama would call a boat an investment. Whenever he spent other people's money he called it an "investment."

Wow. Your still focused on that guy? Open your eyes.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Alex_V

So where is that sweet spot where you minimize the loss in value?

Fairly easy thing to determine using real numbers if you purchase a subscription to soldboats.com

[denverd0n]

Given that actually making any money off the boat is a complete impossibility, I think it makes more sense to pick a boat based on what will work best for your needs, rather than what will depreciate the least. I don't think the difference in the depreciation is going to be significant, but the suitability for your purposes may very well be!

[SteveSadler]

Between sailboats, we had a motorhome for 15 years. We spent a month every year travelling everywhere on the west coast. Being self sufficient we paid only campsite fees (sometimes) food and fuel. Instead of restraurants and motels. As with sailing we were anchored most of the time that cost next to nothing. At home we paid a mortgage, car payments, insurance, cable, water, electricity. The bills add up.
Living on a sailboat at anchor you dont pay all those bills. So if you lose money on the buy, sell and maintain, it's still a better investment than paying for a house, cars,utilities, etc. The value of the boat (after 10 years) remains stable as the condition determines the price.
We rented our house while we cruised for 2 years and lived cheap.
As the house appreciated, luckily they don't always, so did the boat, only because of our lucky buy and our serious efforts in relocating and refinishing all surfaces.
In summary what do you consider an investment? A return on investment is not only counted in $, But in experiences. Travelling through Europe and most destinations will cost $100 to $200 per day per couple. On your boat, its 1/4 of that, making long term travel affordable.

[poiu]

A boat can go up in value. Here's one great example, the Riva Aquarama:
1968 Riva Aquarama Power New and Used Boats for Sale - www.yachtworld.co.uk
$2m + asking.

Cars, motorbikes and planes all can go up and many have done so, quite dramatically in recent years. So why not a sailing boat?

The key is limited supply and iconic status. The teenager poster test. Was a yacht ever such an object of desire?

Maybe the original J boats would qualify. Or an S&S classic with provenance, think JFK's private boat perhaps. I can't think of any production yacht that has pin-up qualities. There must be some though?