Bluewater - Hanse / Swan / Oyster

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Corto_Maltese

My girlfriend and I are looking to order a new boat under 24m (78') on which we would spend the next 5-6 years cursing around the globe.

Money is not an issue. Considerations are: safety, ease of handling, performance/speed, looks (interior and decks) and comfort. Most of the time it would be two of us + dog. Occasionally we would have visits from friends and family. Additionally, we plan to hire 2 additional crew members for longer cross ocean passages.

We narrowed down to these three:

• Nautor's Swan 78
• Hanse 675
• Oyster 675 / Oyster 745

From all 3, Hanse has the best looks, but I have read lot of issues from owners who bought a new boat. Personally I do not have experience with Hanse.
Oyster - proven as a good bluewater
Swan - my favorite, great performance and sleek likes (which might be ruined a bit after equipping the boat for long cruises - solar/wind generators..etc)

Experience, pro/cons? All 3 are great boats when it comes to safety and ease of handling. In the meantime we plan to charter boars from all 3 builders.

Thanks!

Good for you. I wish I could kick off long term too.

Forget the Hanse - I am surprised it is an option for you, it is great value, but not at all as nicely built as the other two. I think Swan / Oyster is a toss up. I prefer Oyster as I like the lines and so often the Swans are a bit cave like, but their raised saloon options may be as good. Performance wise Swan may have a slight edge, but probably not so much that you would miss it.

If I were buying money no object I would go custom from a Dutch yard. You can't get what I would want in the off the peg options in the sizes you mentioned. I would want a raised saloon, which I have now. Oyster may build you a one off in their boats, you would need to ask. Or get a bigger Oyster, where it is standard.

I would also want an all weather helm, a dinghy garage, lifting keel, twin rudders and quite a bit of attention to performance and systems.

I would also consider a cat. I expect it to win on the comfort issue. I might have gone for the Gunboat, but they only make the 55 now under Outremer. A 66 second hand may work. I have no experience with them. A charter would be useful. The problem with cats is I haven't yet seen one that makes my pulse raise.

That said, none of this really matters much. Your attitude matters most and you should have a great time in anything. Go for it.

[AJPT]

I believe there is a new Hanse model, the 588, might be worth a look if your interested in the hanse.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[YachtBroker]

If you have the budget for a Nautor or Oyster, forget the Hanse.
To me Oyster is going to be set up better for short handed sailing. Nautor Swan, while they build some incredible boats, they tend to not be rigged to short hand sail as well and the accomodations and cockpit tend to also be rigged more for sailing than comfort. At least a Swan 61 I have sailed many an offshore mile seemed like that to mee.

Then again if you're going new you could have it done the way you want. Just my two cents.

[MMirandsa]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

These boats are as different from each other as chalk and cheese. Before even starting to make a decision you should charter everything you can find and start to get a feel for what you like. You shouldn't make a multi-million dollar decision like this on the basis of "sleek looks".

If as you say money is not an issue, then immediately scratch off the Hanse. They are astounding value for money, but not vaguely in a league with the others for long distance, long term cruising, which is not what they are made for.

I would also say, in my humble personal opinion, that the Swan is not really the preferable choice for a circumnavigation or other long term, long distance cruising, which is not what it's made for. This is a high performance boat made for high performance sailing in controlled conditions. You stand on top of the flush deck and there is no shelter and nothing to hold on to. It's not the place you would want to be crossing an ocean, even in mild latitudes, and forget anything high. It has extremely complex systems which would make me nervous to be too far away from qualified service. It is not set up for living aboard or long distances and would take a lot of work to properly equip.


The Oyster is a no-brainer, in my opinion, from among these three. This is a top quality cruising boat which is really intended for comfortable long distance cruising, and strong enough to take whatever conditions you'll encounter anywhere. Order it with the optional crew quarters, because you'll want to have one (at least) professional crewman to keep up with all the work of maintaining all those systems and doing all the chores which would otherwise keep you too busy to enjoy much else.


The Oyster is also not what I, personally would choose for that kind of sailing, but it's by far the best choice from among the three you presented.

Dockhead, few years since you posted this... 2020 now! Please be so kind to mention which would be your preferable choice/choices for the referred kind of sailing.

Similar situation as that from the thread origin: boat to circumnavigate with my wife. Aiming for 57 ft to 62 ft boat.

Thank you and happy new year!

[mglonnro]

Money is not an issue.

For the Hanse to be winning choice, I think money would have to be a bit of an issue .

The Swan 78 seems to start at about 5+ M€ while the Hanse 675 is 1+ M€.

Aesthetically, the Swan seems like an absolutely beautiful yacht. Especially if you dig the (interior) design style.

Like Juho mentioned, check out https://www.balticyachts.fi/yachts/. They make cool yachts as well!

Good luck with your adventure!

Kind regards,
Hanse fanperson Mikael

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by MMirandsa

Dockhead, few years since you posted this... 2020 now! Please be so kind to mention which would be your preferable choice/choices for the referred kind of sailing.

Similar situation as that from the thread origin: boat to circumnavigate with my wife. Aiming for 57 ft to 62 ft boat.

Thank you and happy new year!

There is no shortcut around getting to know a bunch of different boats and figuring out yourself what you like.


I am personally inclined to Northern European boats -- Oyster, Discovery, the old Moodys, Contest, Hallberg Rassey, Sweden Yachts, Malo, etc. I like Swans but they don't really make long distance cruising boats any more -- they've found a different niche. These boats are all very expensive and they're also not really made for extended autonomy -- they will all need some modifications to be good for spending a few years off grid sailing around the world.



This is an awfully nice boat in this class: https://www.hallberg-rassy.com/yacht...berg-rassy-57/


Just for example.


Or:


https://discoveryyachtsgroup.com/cus...lio/custom-58/


or:


https://www.contestyachts.com/contes...ng-yachts/62cs


There are a lot of choices. With a "money no object" budget, you might also consider a custom build.

[jmh2002]

Dockhead speaks words of reason here.

And I second his final comment that with some serious budget, custom or at least semi-custom would provide for a much better fit for purpose yacht in the end.

[MMirandsa]

Thank you both for your answers. Finally, again for circumnavigating, what is your opinion on Gunfleet? Are they in the same league as Contest, HRassy, Oyster...?

Read then Gunfleet’s electronic system is below par in quality (CZone by Mastervolt).

Following your advice, we will take time for boat shows and even direct visit to each builder of our liking to decide on which boat.

[250224]

Originally Posted by MMirandsa

Read then Gunfleet’s electronic system is below par in quality (CZone by Mastervolt).

Is this from this article: The Gunfleet 58 from an owner´s perspective ?

Fwiw, I just read an article that the new Oyster 565 has much success, i.e. long waiting queues. Nice to see this traditional shipyard doing well again.

[MMirandsa]

Yes, from that article.

[jtsailjt]

I imagine that the OP is long gone by now, I wonder what they chose.

If I were looking for a boat this size and had the money, I’d look very hard at a used Hinckley built around 2000.

https://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...currencyid=100

I’ve seen this Hinckley 70 (Patriot) under sail and it’s a stunning sailboat. I was recently reminded of the incredibly high standards these boats are built to when I accompanied a friend to inspect the last Hinckley 59 (Zenetia) that was built. He’s buying it. Both Patriot and the boat he’s buying were built using the SCRIMP method and Kevlar fibers to make an incredibly tough but light hull. Zenetias crew quarters or storage area are forward of a watertight bulkhead for safety in the event of a collision with a rock or floating container. But beyond the advanced engineering, the workmanship and attention to detail is just amazing. Some of the pictures look pretty nice but you have to get up close to really see just how impressive these boats are. Attention to detail in every aspect is obvious and every piece of hardware is the best available.

Hinckley used to make beautiful, heavy, relatively poor performing, traditional looking, cruising sailboats. But over the last decade or so before they turned away from building cruising sailboats and towards motorboats and day sailers, they started paying a lot more attention to technology and performance, but kept up their standards regarding aesthetics. Easily, their best boats were built during this period. But if they built the 59 today they’d have to get between 3 and 4 million $$ for it and who knows what a new version of Patriot would cost! When something almost as nice can be built in Asia and sold for 1/2 the price, it’s pretty tough for an American boatbuilder, even one whose reputation commanded a premium price, to compete in that market. But nevertheless, some of these later era Hinckley cruising sailboats are becoming available at a small percentage of their new cost. Since most original Hinckley owners, like the OP, had an unlimited boat budget, they tended to maintain them accordingly. So, you have a high tech, lightweight but very tough hull, a beautifully crafted interior and exterior, top notch materials everywhere that have all been cared for and replaced as necessary, with little or no thought for the cost involved.

Since I was the one who pointed out the Zenetia listing to my friend, he offered to give me “first dibs” on it and I came perilously close to buying it. At $350k it’s an absolute steal, to the point where we both wondered what the “catch” might be. But after survey and our inspection, it became clear just what a deal this is. The all cherry interior looks like it’s one year old and the exterior is about the same. Some relatively small mechanical issues need to be addressed and the mast repainted but other than that it’s an awful lot like a new $4 million sailboat for a 10th of that. As beautiful as she is and as much as I’d love to sail Zenetia, I reluctantly came to the conclusion that I don’t need and don’t want a 59’ boat to take care of, so I passed on buying her in favor of my friend. But I do recognize what an amazing boat and amazing bargain he’s getting and will be very happy to sail it with him. From the 70’ Patriot on down the Hinckley line, some of these late era boats are coming on the market at very attractive prices and are worth a hard look for anyone in the market for a custom cruising sailboat in this size range.

[Pizzazz]

It is always fun to dream about top of the line 60+ ft boats but the reality is that Beneteau and Hanse sell more 60 footers that HR/Discovery/Contest combined. Price is obviously a factor here but the calculation is like this:

1. Rich guy or girl, develops a bug for sailing, most likely will have a captain. Likes the light and superficial glossy finish of the Beneteau, gets the boat for $1 million, uses it 2-3 months per year max, his crew complains about the quality but the owner does not care, sells the boat five years later for half price and is quite happy.

Same person, gets convinced by this forum to go for quality, spends $4-5 million on the equivalent Oyster or HR, complains all the time about the lack of light, space or a large swim platform, never experiences conditions that required such a strong boat, realizes that his $5 million boat is actually quite slower than the Beneteaus on the occasional ARC he may do, decides to switch boats and realizes it takes 1-2 years to sell a large quality boat (limited market) while in the case of the guy above, Beneteau will purchase the old boat from him for a decent price in exchange for a new model. So our guy will be out $1-2 million and not as happy as he could have been with the Beneteau.

These were actual conversations people were having at the ARC. And it was fitting that the captains and the owners were having very different conversations, one group getting excited about the massive swim platform of a Beneteau, the other one about engine access on a HR. Guess who is making the decision - definitely not the captains.

[savoir]

I just received an email notice about this old thread. I'll repeat what I said to the OP - are you sure you understand the difficulty of running a 60 footer ? I keep my boat in Rhode Island and large plush cruisers come through there every day. It is quite rare to see a family crewed boat larger than 54ft. Bigger boats tend to have professional crew and at the very least a captain. There is good reason for this - boats of that size are a real handful.

Are you confident that your wife can complete a sail change at 2am in 20ft seas ? Do you have the mechanical skills to maintain the systems on a 60 footer ? Boats of that size are always complex.

On the other hand there are plenty of family crewed cruisers in the 45 - 50ft size bracket. Do the owners of these boats know something ? Take a look at the Swan 46 or 48. Hylas have a very attractive 46 Here is an Oyster 49 right near me that should suit your needs.
https://au.yachtworld.com/boats/2015...r-475-3540141/

Of the boats you have mentioned Swan will sail the best and Oyster will be the most comfy.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

It is always fun to dream about top of the line 60+ ft boats but the reality is that Beneteau and Hanse sell more 60 footers that HR/Discovery/Contest combined. Price is obviously a factor here but the calculation is like this:

1. Rich guy or girl, develops a bug for sailing, most likely will have a captain. Likes the light and superficial glossy finish of the Beneteau, gets the boat for $1 million, uses it 2-3 months per year max, his crew complains about the quality but the owner does not care, sells the boat five years later for half price and is quite happy.

YES! And lol, this was a thread from 2016. Didn't realize that.

One charter management company (you can buy the 675 through them, for instance) says that their statistics of resale price after six years of charter is around 65% of the original price.

... since money _always_ is an issue ... there are plenty of reasons for getting a standardized mass produced boat...

[savoir]

65% ? ? ? I'm surprised it is that high.