Bluewater Boats

[aspiringsailor]

Thats why i have mostly been reading along and not saying much. My original questions was with regards to what boats were built and designed to cross oceans. I am quite sure certain boats were built with this in mind and others were not. It seems that most of the responses are about being a good enough sailor then you can sail anything anywhere which i am certain is not the case. My original intentions for asking about "blue water boats" was to narrow in on a couple boats that i would like to possibly charter and further narrow down my criteria. But the overall feelings i get from some of the posts is that i should go buy a daysailer and sail the crap out of it then i wouldnt have to ask questions. I still beleive that certain boats were built for specific purposes. Yeah you might be able to refit something to get you by. It seems that comparisons lean toward car lingo so here goes. I could probably drop a merlin big block in a honda civic and take it down the drag strip, however thats not what the car was designed for, and there are cars specifically designed for those purposes, much like im sure boats have certain intentions when they are built.

[barnakiel]

Amels - I think the smallest is 43 or so, then there is the 46, then 50 plus smthg. The newest is 54 anyway. They have been in business for quite some time now.

Jedi would not sail a 32 ft Jeanneau but it is exactly Jeanneau Sunfast 3200 that is the choice of Transquadra sailors and a Benneteau is the choice for Solitare de Figaro. So, these boats are built to be pressed hard and sailed. Off course, both boatyards build marina queens too, mostly.

If I had a boat like Jedi (Sundeer?) I would not degrade to Jeanneau either;-). But if I were to sail a Sunfast 3200, a Pogo 40 or any other of such designs I would probably stick to the concept that if they are good for ocean racing then they are good enough for my cruising. Just bloody uncomfortable.

For proponents of Westsail type though I can suggest lecture of Pete Goss' recent adventures in the southern ocean. The design he sailed was very, very close to Westsail (that is to say - to any copy of a Norwegian life boats as designed by Archer like a HUNDRED YEARS AGO). And don't skip the knockdown (or was it a capsize?) part - it was very entertaining. To read.

b.

[Curmudgeon]

A daysailer wouldn't help you much. It takes a few days to learn to sail. Seamanship, which is what you need to go offshore, takes a lifetime to learn and you won't learn it on a daysailer.

I've daysailed for 40 years and even my little 30 ft cutter is a completely different animal.

I've seen these threads from time to time ever since I started visiting sailing forums on line. A good enough sailor can get across an ocean in any decent boat. Usually the poster is suggesting, by implication, that you aren't experienced enough to do this, but (by virtue of making the assertion) he is.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

For proponents of Westsail type though I can suggest lecture of Pete Goss' recent adventures in the southern ocean. The design he sailed was very, very close to Westsail (that is to say - to any copy of a Norwegian life boats as designed by Archer like a HUNDRED YEARS AGO). And don't skip the knockdown (or was it a capsize?) part - it was very entertaining. To read.

b.

My understanding is that Goss' boat was a homebult replica of a boat that sailed from England to Australia in 1855. It wasn't based on an Archer design. It was a gaff rigged lugger.

If you look at the film they took at the beginning of the storm that knocked them down, you will see them running before the storm under jib alone, without a drogue, surfing like a bat out of hell on the big waves.

[Fishman_Tx]

I guess it's a matter of personal opinion, up to a point. At which point does it become foolhardy? I've been told Irwins are not bluewater. is that because of light construction or overall design?

[s/v Jedi]

AspiringSailor: The tough part is that you normally can't charter blue water cruisers. Charter companies have boats that are designed for chartering.

Barnakiel: it's only now that I realize we're talking about blue water boats and not the subset of blue water cruisers. All I have written in this thread is about blue water cruisers, not racers, my mistake. A racer is never a good blue water cruiser.
I don't have much against Amels. Sunfast is a nice boat, I chartered one in Holland once. But it is a racer and really down on the lowest level of comfort.

Fishman: I have seen two (!!) Irwin 52's go down. One was during hurricane Ivan in Grenada and it was just below the surface on a reef. The fiberglass around the bow area was as thin as cardboard and waving around in the water with the current. Many call Irwin's cruiser-killers which says enough. But they are great to live on and good for island hopping etc.

ciao!
Nick.

[cburger]

Originally Posted by aspiringsailor

Thats why i have mostly been reading along and not saying much. My original questions was with regards to what boats were built and designed to cross oceans. I am quite sure certain boats were built with this in mind and others were not. It seems that most of the responses are about being a good enough sailor then you can sail anything anywhere which i am certain is not the case. My original intentions for asking about "blue water boats" was to narrow in on a couple boats that i would like to possibly charter and further narrow down my criteria. But the overall feelings i get from some of the posts is that i should go buy a daysailer and sail the crap out of it then i wouldnt have to ask questions. I still beleive that certain boats were built for specific purposes. Yeah you might be able to refit something to get you by. It seems that comparisons lean toward car lingo so here goes. I could probably drop a merlin big block in a honda civic and take it down the drag strip, however thats not what the car was designed for, and there are cars specifically designed for those purposes, much like im sure boats have certain intentions when they are built.

Your question was answered by the first post that provided the very long list of candidates.

[aspiringsailor]

Originally Posted by cburger

Your question was answered by the first post that provided the very long list of candidates.

I agree, although i have been finding others not listed. In fact if i were to go buy a cruising boat right now i would probably go with the Tayana 42. Its not on the list, but from my research appears to be a very capable boat. I however will not be buying anytime in the near future, so nothing is set in stone at all.

[RainDog]

Originally Posted by aspiringsailor

I agree, although i have been finding others not listed. In fact if i were to go buy a cruising boat right now i would probably go with the Tayana 42. Its not on the list

Actually the Tayana's are on the list of you look at the full list in the update thread. You need to look at post 6 and post 8.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-r...ry-2008-a.html

[barnakiel]

Quote: "... My understanding is that ... it wasn't based on an Archer design. It was a gaff rigged lugger."

I clarify - by 'based on Archer design' I understand the shape and characteristics of the underbody.

At some point of sailing boat design history it was wrongly assumed, since Archer designed life boats that would go out to rescue in any weather (read - in the worst kind of conditions one can find on the Norwegian coast) and that he also built Fram, that he WAS the designer to follow for building ocean going (pleasure) boats.

Now:

- the Norwegian coast can be bad, but it is not representative for ocean sailing in heavy conditions,
- a life boat is fully powered, well manned, and a coastal boat, it is a 'stint' boat,
- it was all 100 years ago, when we had less experience sailing oceans in 'small' boats, when materials were different and ever since not only ships developed but also our understanding of hydro- and aerodynamics, i.a.,

And if Goss and his crew were " ...surfing like a bat out of hell on the big waves..." then I do not see ANY advantage of a heavy design over an ULDB! In fact if they both surf (which I doubt in case of Goss' boat) then I would prefer to surf in the light boat that is much easier to control on the plane.

I believe I might have said this here before: There is a HUGE difference between an Archer design (Hanna ketch, Westsail 32, and the mods) and the modified design as seen in Hans Christian. The latter was later improved on by designs like Valiant, Pacific Seacraft or Hallberg-Rassy and Najad in Europe.

I agree that designs like Westsail 32 can be pretty and that they have very good load carrying capacity as well as plenty of features which are important to some cruisers. But they are very old school of design and the newer designs can be, and often are, easier to sail and faster, and thus safer and better blue water boats.

[Fishman_Tx]

Heck, all else fails, go for the Bristol 41. But of COURSE I'm biased! Look what i got.

[zeehag]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

See, I get this thread more interesting ;-)

Zeehag, about 30+ year old boats; as you volunteer looking at your Formosa, I'll be happy to oblige and list the points why I wouldn't take her across an ocean. But don't get mad at me, I think they are great boats and may be even in the top 3 for living on one; this is just about the crossing oceans with possible storms etc. side of it. Well, here we go:

• When did you replace her deck? Is it back to original strength now, without any rot?
• When did you replace the engine, how many hours are on it now?
• When did you replace the structural bolts and other fasteners?
• When did you replace the masts and booms (is it still the old wooden ones?)
• When did you replace the chain plates?
• What is the condition of the hull?
• How about the rudder?

So, it's basically all age related questions. I see these boats selling for 40-50k$ and for a 41' boat, yo can only get it for that price because it's so old. To get it up to the like-new state, you would need to spend a lot of money on her and more time and effort.

Barnakiel: The Amels I would consider are 50+ feet I think (Super Muramu?) and I actually like them... somewhat. The Amel and Ovni are, afaik, the only French cruising boats built in series; the rest is all designed for chartering primarily. Well, may be the First series not but it would still need to be the 47' before I consider it.

I know the French have great sailors (besides the Parisian charterers who never sailed before) and I have only praise for them... but they wisely don't take a Jeanneau 32.2 across the ocean. The boat is not built for that. I know it can be done, I sailed the boat myself, but I also sailed it through some nasty weather on Dutch in-shore waters and man I was beat after only an hour or so. And you just feel that it won't stand much worse or much more of that.

About the other countries that build boats: I would add South Africa, Australia, Scandinavian, and Kiwi built boats to the good to go list. I would add Bavaria to the list of no go.

So, let's add this to the discussion: a blue water cruiser must be forgiving.

cheers,
Nick.

i sailed an irwin once--i will never do so again--no one could pay me enough to so do--they are nasty in surfing conditions and sail worse than my brick on a good day!!! i delivered one from avalon to oceanside in 30 ft seas and hated every moment of that trip!!
i received my formosa for 10k from a man who could not maintain her. she had been restored prior to his purchase and he blew the engine at less than 100 hours trying to muscle her off a shoal in san diego bay as i watched from the moorings just north of his mishap.he forgot to check oil in his westerbeke 4=107... LOL. i replaced the engine in the boat with a nice perkins 4-108. she purrs beautifully. the decking was removed and the decks were replaced 5-6 yrs ago, rig 5 yrs ago. chainplates and fasteners by me, this next yr before i go sailing on her. the hull is fiberglass -- thick and strong and excellent. the decks are not spongy, and were replaced 6 yrs ago.there is no wood on her decks anymore. the sprit is solid. the masts are spruce and i know how to repair them if i should require that work done.the rudder is good -the gudgeons and pintles in good shape. the shaft log and cutlass bearing will be replaced before i leave san diego...
i learned to sail from a tallshipman who was a great lakes shipping co employee--his grandfather, my grt great grandfather , was the founder and owner.
i was apprentice to a surveyor in san diego for a while. i know what to look for and have repaired most of her needs as they were when i received her. is why i bullied the man who used to own her out of her for such a good price!! LOL.....
i was taught to sail aboard a registered national historic treasure in the northeast part of usa.
i have no dreams of crossing the atlantic or the pacific, but i am going to go to the caribean. these boats are all over the world--some in fairly bad shape and some are in excellent shape. i will not sail a boat that is in poor shape or ugly. nor will i have varnish or cetol on my woodworks. i use oil in the traditional method, as i was taught!!
i never wanted a deerfoot nor do i find them attractive--i like the lines and looks of the garden designed formosa/ct/hardin sea wolf... LOL...i find them almost as graceful as the schooners of yesteryear i always enjoyed watching them sail. there is no reason to have to utilize a modern and ugly boat if one does not desire to so do...that is why there are so many kinds of boats in this world ...so everyone can find one that appeals to them....LOL
as far as forgiveness in a boat---the formosa /ct/seawolf is a very forgiving ketch and is more than up to the challenge i plan on giving her....they do have a bad rep but there are ways to overcome that....they do not oilcan as do many of the more modern looking boats with lesser hulls and fewer bulkheads.....there is no perfect boat in this world--but there are many to choose from and many to be able to make improvements on so they are more like what a buyer would want and expect from it... every boat is a project boat, and every new boat needs to have many things fixed prior to adventuring in them....it is also very easy to badmouth a marque because of the reputation handed it----i have seen that with many many kinds of boats----some very deserving of those raps..LOL--and i agree formosa is one of those--but there are ways to make the boat decent and worthy of adventure in safe manner, at which time they are most incredibly worthy of the service for which they were intended..LOL......
i am not angry--i am amused that someone would have the presumption to judge another and the choices made by them--yes, many boats going to sea would be more of an adventure than many would choose to make--but that is the individual's choice--not ours..LOL....have a gooood day and smoooth sailing......

[s/v Jedi]

Zeehag,

i have no dreams of crossing the atlantic or the pacific, but i am going to go to the caribean.

I think it's wise you target the Caribbean. When you transit the canal and head into the Caribbean sea during the winter, you'll get all the sun, wind and sea action you ever wanted. Head to starboard, into the beautiful San Blas islands and on to Colombia. Wait for summer before heading further east to the ABC's, because even 80-100' posh yachts come back with their tail between their legs when they try it with the reinforced trades on the nose ;-)

i never wanted a deerfoot nor do i find them attractive

Well, you might not want one but I wish I could afford one! Even though Sundeer is the successor of the Deerfoot with much improved lines etc., Jedi still feels Deerfoot is her heritage and she wants to tell your Formosa that she looks like a drunken parrot on the shoulder of a grey old pirate! LOL!! ;-)
But apart from joking, this thread isn't about personal preferences or looks, it's about the blue water capability of the boat.

it is also very easy to badmouth a marque because of the reputation handed it----i have seen that with many many kinds of boats----some very deserving of those raps..LOL--and i agree formosa is one of those--but there are ways to make the boat decent and worthy of adventure in safe manner, at which time they are most incredibly worthy of the service for which they were intended..LOL......

So you agree with me! You addressed all the points I listed because they caused you concern too: new fiberglass decks and all, and improvements to overcome the shortcomings of the design. That's what I wrote before: you change the design so it's not a stock Formosa anymore.

i am not angry--i am amused that someone would have the presumption to judge another and the choices made by them--yes, many boats going to sea would be more of an adventure than many would choose to make--but that is the individual's choice--not ours..LOL

Zeehag, I have been reading some of your posts and already know you sometimes choose to interpret posts so that they better fit what you want to write. You know I don't judge you or anyone else, I don't even know you. I merely judge boat designs and firmly hold my position that the Formosa is a nice boat but when 30 years old not suited for ocean crossing unless a lot of it is replaced... which you are doing with yours.

If you hurry up I might still be here at the Caribbean side of Panama and we can have a drink somewhere in the San Blas. But you have to promise me to lower your Jolly Roger and leave the parrot on board! ;-)

ciao!
Nick.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by aspiringsailor

My original questions was with regards to what boats were built and designed to cross oceans. . . . My original intentions for asking about "blue water boats" was to narrow in on a couple boats that i would like to possibly charter and further narrow down my criteria.

The following boats are SSCA (fulltime cruising) and have sailed more that 5000nm offshore and are less than 40':

Boat nameBoat modelBoat lengthMaterialRigTripChamoisNorsea27FbgCutterPacificThistleBristol Channel Cut28FbgCutterUS CoastTupilakGreat Dane28FbgCutterAtlantic CircleBriar RoseCascade29FbgCutterPacificEndless SummerCascade29FbgCutterPacificCassiopeiaGolden Gate30FbgCutterPacificSeayaCheoy Lee 31FbgCutterPacificAriel IIIIsland Packet31FbgCutterMaine to Carib 5XLizabethWesterly31FbgCutterAtlantic CircleGypsyDeFever32FbgSloopPacificMorning WindWestsail32FbgCutterAtlantic CircleArgo-nutsWestsail32FbgCutterPacificPalmaWestsail32FbgCutterPacificThrostleProut33FbgCatAtlantic CircleTanameraSkorpion 100033Atlantic/Pacific crossingsCetusFantasia35FbgCutterPacificBlew MoonFantasia35FbgUS CoastDovkaHallberg Rassy35FbgCutterTo Caribbean >3xEmerald CityWauquiez Pretorien35FbgCutterThree oceansRoyal SaluteBreckveldt36Two CircumnavigationsAlaska Poor BoyCatalina36FbgSloopAlaska/Hawaii/Mexico EnbarrContest36FbgCutterAtlantic CircleMi CasaPearson36FbgMaine to Carib 2XTropic BirdVancouver36FbgCutterAtlantic CircleNew AddressDuncanson37FbgSloopCircumnavigationFuzzy LogicFlica37FbgCatAtlantic CircleSparrowPacific Seacraft37FbgCutterAtlantic CirclePassport IIProut Snowgoose37FbgCatAtlantic CircleTiggerTartan37FbgSloopPacificThe ChanceTayana37FbgCutterBaltimore to Bahamas 2xIngrid PrincessBluewater38PacificIrish MistDowneaster38FbgCutterPacificSyenaHunter Legend38FbgCutterPacificOn the WayMorgan38FbgKetchUS Coast/PacificLone RivalRival38FbgCutterAtlantic CircleTumbleweedShannon38FbgKetchUS CoastAnesthesiaC&C39FbgSloopPacificFair RoseFairweather Mariner39PacificToucanPanda39FbgCutterPacificExit OnlyPrivilege39FbgCatPacific

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by aspiringsailor

My original questions was with regards to what boats were built and designed to cross oceans. . . . My original intentions for asking about "blue water boats" was to narrow in on a couple boats that i would like to possibly charter and further narrow down my criteria.

To try to directly answer your question . . . The following boats are SSCA (full time cruising) and have sailed more that 5000nm offshore and are less than 40':

Norsea 27 ;Bristol Channel Cutter 28; Great Dane 28; Cascade 29; Cascade 29; Golden Gate 30; Cheoy Lee 31; Island Packet 31;Westerly 31;DeFever 32; Westsail 32; Westsail 32; Westsail 32; Prout 33; Skorpion 1000 33; Fantasia 35; Fantasia 35;Hallberg Rassy 35; Wauquiez Pretorien 35; Breckveldt 36; Catalina 36; Contest 36; Pearson 36; Vancouver 36; Duncanson 37; Flica 37; Pacific Seacraft 37; Prout Snowgoose 37; Tartan 37; Tayana 37;Ingrid Princess 38; Downeaster 38; Hunter Legend 38; Morgan 38; Rival 38; Shannon 38; C&C 39;Fairweather Mariner 39; Panda 39; Privilege 39

And 40-45':
Altenwerder 40, Angleman/Davies 40, Aventura 40, Joshua 40, Joshua 40, Laurent Giles 40, Norseman 40, North America 40, Panda 40, Valiant 40, Valiant 40, Valiant 40, Cheoy Lee 41, CT-41 41, Custom 41, Hans Christian 41, Sceptre 41, Beneteau 42, Cat-Flotteur 42, Defiance 42, Discovery 42, Fairweather Seeker 42, Maple Leaf 42, Pearson 42, Perry 42, Slocum 42, Tatoosh 42, Tayana 42, Westsail 42, Westsail 42, Whitby 42, Whitby 42, Cape North 43, Hans Christian 43, Mason 43, Swan 43, Westsail 43, Antigua 44, Freedom 44, Hudson Sea Wolf 44, Hylas 44, Island Packet 44, Islander 44, LaFitte 44, Mason 44, Norseman 44, Norseman 44, Peterson 44, Reliance 44, Seaton 44, Agulhas 45, Cantiere Navau 45


This is obviously nowhere near a comprehensive list of boats that claim to be 'bluewater', but these boats have in fact done the miles and are not just claimed by marketing people to be blue water. The problem is that, unlike with automobiles, the boat market is extremely fragmented with short runs of boats, essentially hand built and semi custom. There are 1000's of boats that can lay claim to being blue water capable, and even within one particular brand/model, one hull may have been well built and the next crap.

The 'list' you really need to work with is the boats that are available for sale. I would suggest you find a surveyor (or 'buying' broker) you like and drive around looking at boats and the surveyor can point out structural features and problems with each boat for sale and you can look at and assess the other characteristics (looks, size, sailing performance, galley and bunks, etc). Then its just a matter of finding the best deal available on the boats you are the surveyor are both happy with.


Realize that the very plain fact is that pretty much any boat should to be completely taken apart and every bit inspected and fixed before starting to cross an oceans. If the boat is over 10 years old, there will be lots of things that will need replacing.