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**sneuman** · 27-05-2022, 04:50

Of course this is a discussion that's going to devolve into the "bluewater boats" vs. "there's no such thing as bluewater boats" thing. It's a bit silly on both sides. But, I think the people in the second camp (i.e., "a bluewater sailor can cross an ocean in a bathtub") are missing something important. It's not just the design, but the build quality, too. Here's an example: a friend of mine who owns a newish French boat (no, not that French boat) recently ripped out a stanchion, leaving a gaping hole in the deck. I'm helping him fix it now. In the process, I discovered that his stanchions are all installed without any backing plates. None. Also, none on any of the cleats. This is just one example of the light-duty install on a boat that could eventually bite you in the arse. Ripping off a stanchion at sea may not seem that likely, but it could happen. And if it does, there'll be a hole to plug. Maybe not the end of the world, but in bad weather it could be the first problem in a cascading series of events. What if it isn't noticed for a while? How much water will be in the bilge by then? And the stanchions make me wonder what else on the boat was installed with the same minimal philosophy. Some boats are just better built than others. Given a choice, I'd rather cross oceans in the better ones.

valhalla360 · 27-05-2022, 04:51

Blue water is a marketing term more than anything else.

Once you have a decently sea worthy boat in good condition, go for it.

A key issue to keep in mind is the vast majority of days, you will be at anchor or coastal cruising where the heavy full keel boats usually marketed as blue water are less comfortable than comparable modern designs.

Mike Crothers · 27-05-2022, 06:21

"cross the Atlantic/Pacific/Hawaii and the milk run in the Pacific, the Great Loop, coastal cruising/Keys/Caribbean/Bahamas"

I love your ambition and I wish you the best of luck on finding the swiss army knife of boats that can do all things well. I am not sure such a boat exists.

One suggestion on your budget, unless you find a boat that has already been recently outfitted for extensive cruising, plan on having $30 to $50,000 for up fitting of the boat over the first few years to match each of your goals as needed. Avoid buying electronics or a life raft until you need it.

But consider the current condition of each of the following and plan on replacing or rebuilding your; standing rigging, thru hulls, pumps, hoses, life lines, steering chain, control cables, hatch gaskets, lighting to LED, windless, and modern anchor while your are still in your home port and have time to do things right and to a budget.

Or do like many cruisers do and plan to fix your boat in exotic places as you go. Good Luck

goboatingnow · 27-05-2022, 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by sneuman

Of course this is a discussion that's going to devolve into the "bluewater boats" vs. "there's no such thing as bluewater boats" thing. It's a bit silly on both sides. But, I think the people in the second camp (i.e., "a bluewater sailor can cross an ocean in a bathtub") are missing something important. It's not just the design, but the build quality, too. Here's an example: a friend of mine who owns a newish French boat (no, not that French boat) recently ripped out a stanchion, leaving a gaping hole in the deck. I'm helping him fix it now. In the process, I discovered that his stanchions are all installed without any backing plates. None. Also, none on any of the cleats. This is just one example of the light-duty install on a boat that could eventually bite you in the arse. Ripping off a stanchion at sea may not seem that likely, but it could happen. And if it does, there'll be a hole to plug. Maybe not the end of the world, but in bad weather it could be the first problem in a cascading series of events. What if it isn't noticed for a while? How much water will be in the bilge by then? And the stanchions make me wonder what else on the boat was installed with the same minimal philosophy. Some boats are just better built than others. Given a choice, I'd rather cross oceans in the better ones.

The problem is define “ better “ if you mean “ more expensive “ what do you get for your money

I have a friend with a HR. His cleat was ripped out of the boat when he was hit by a trawler wake. Seemingly paying 5x didn’t make that big 5x stronger!

Everyone wants a strong boat for the “ money “. But it’s not that easy !!

**sneuman** · 27-05-2022, 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The problem is define “ better “ if you mean “ more expensive “ what do you get for your money

I have a friend with a HR. His cleat was ripped out of the boat when he was hit by a trawler wake. Seemingly paying 5x didn’t make that big 5x stronger!

Everyone wants a strong boat for the “ money “. But it’s not that easy !!

I wasn't necessarily equating money with quality. Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes you don't. My friend paid much more for his French boat than I paid for my Taiwanese one (although admittedly his was new, and mine was not). And yet, mine had beefy backing plates and reinforced stanchions, whereas his does not.

There will always be an outlier here and there. But the fact is that a cleat put in without a backing plate is much more likely to pull out than one without. That's a fact.

sailorboy1 · 27-05-2022, 08:09

Money might not get you quality

but

Quality will always cost money

**TrentePieds** · 27-05-2022, 09:11

Is not the real question that of what constitutes a "blue water" SKIPPER as compared with a "coastal skipper", rather than what constitutes a "blue water" BOAT as opposed to a "coastal boat".

The manner in which the OP expresses his ambitions in post #1, I think he might benefit immensely from reading Chichester's Gypsy Moth Circles the World. As most of us know, it sets forth in copious detail the vicissitudes of a VERY experienced yachtsman-cum-adventurer sailing a VERY expensive custom built boat designed specifically for the circumnavigation.

The book also suggests to me that the famed Naval Architect John Illingworth ("the father of post-war offshore sailing racing") simply blew it when designing Gypsy Moth IV!

So, Roland01, I suggest that you read that book with your mind made receptive to exotic and abstruse observations about "what it is like out there". That will give you lots'n'lots to cogitate upon!

All the best to you :-)!

TrentePieds

**sneuman** · 27-05-2022, 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Is not the real question that of what constitutes a "blue water" SKIPPER as compared with a "coastal skipper", rather than what constitutes a "blue water" BOAT as opposed to a "coastal boat".

The manner in which the OP expresses his ambitions in post #1, I think he might benefit immensely from reading Chichester's Gypsy Moth Circles the World. As most of us know, it sets forth in copious detail the vicissitudes of a VERY experienced yachtsman-cum-adventurer sailing a VERY expensive custom built boat designed specifically for the circumnavigation.

The book also suggests to me that the famed Naval Architect John Illingworth ("the father of post-war offshore sailing racing") simply blew it when designing Gypsy Moth IV!

So, Roland01, I suggest that you read that book with your mind made receptive to exotic and abstruse observations about "what it is like out there". That will give you lots'n'lots to cogitate upon!

All the best to you :-)!

TrentePieds

My takeaway from Chichester's book has always been that a true "bluewater" ocean-going yacht must have a gimbaled beer dispenser.

goboatingnow · 27-05-2022, 09:29

Chichester opined that “ moth “ was an awful sailing boat.

goboatingnow · 27-05-2022, 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by sneuman

I wasn't necessarily equating money with quality. Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes you don't. My friend paid much more for his French boat than I paid for my Taiwanese one (although admittedly his was new, and mine was not). And yet, mine had beefy backing plates and reinforced stanchions, whereas his does not.

There will always be an outlier here and there. But the fact is that a cleat put in without a backing plate is much more likely to pull out than one without. That's a fact.

In my Bavaria everything is tapped into substantial plates embedded in the fibreglass , no visible backing but it’s there and no potential for leaks.

Personally I want my cleats to fail without destroying the boat in the process. The cleat on the HR left nearly a foot square ruptured area and required major rework. ( But the cleat had a nice backing plate ) In a Beneteau you could probably fix it sitting in the marina !!

Strength in itself is a bad measure of quality as is thickness of grp.

Nor is the strength of the cleat any indication of how she’s sails through very bad weather.

**TrentePieds** · 27-05-2022, 09:49

Sneuman said: "My takeaway from Chichester's book has always been that a true "bluewater" ocean-going yacht must have a gimbaled beer dispenser"

Genau :-)! But that's probably so subtle an interpretation that novice ocean-farers may not yet be ready for it :-)! .

And GoBoatingNow said: "Chichester opined that “ moth “ was an awful sailing boat"

Indeed he did, and my point was that a "Blue Water Boat", designed specifically to BE a "Blue Water Boat", by a designer of high repute who had actual BW experience of his own, as well as copious experience of the ocean courtesy of the RN, turned out to be an evil tempered pig in any kinda blow! Furthermore, Sir Francis leaves us with a distinct impression that quite apart from GMIV being a pig in any kinda blow, she was also an abomination as a "live aboard"!

My previous post was meant as an invitation to the OP to consider in great detail Sir Francis' expressed opinion of GMIV so that he - the OP - may have a starting point for establishing the desiderata for a boat of this own that will meet his expressed, ambitious cruising agenda :-)!

TP

____________

**sneuman** · 27-05-2022, 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Chichester opined that “ moth “ was an awful sailing boat.

I remember it leaking a lot, but not that it was an "awful sailing" boat. But, it's probably been 30 years since I read Gypsy Moth Circles The World.

I've heard your argument about backing plates making a bigger hole. The obvious solution here is to simply not fasten the stanchions at all, that way if they pull out, it will just leave a nice, clean 1.5" diameter hole. Problem solved!

AKA-None · 27-05-2022, 13:33

If I may make an observation
Having spent some time repairing steel ships

I’ve fixed ships where welded on stanchion pipes were ripped off simply from wave action and every frame was visible due to steel plate being smashed by waves

And I don’t mean little ships

So if you think that build alone is what will save you from the ocean then you may wish to reconsider