Bilge keel sailors: This one's for you!

[NedX]

In the dark cold New England winter the mind tends to wander...to bilge keels!

I see that some manufacturers market 30-40' bilge keel boats as bluewater cruisers. (Or they have the CE Category A designation, and before you go on about what that does and doesn't mean, so does the Bavaria 37 with the 2-meter fin keel that I sail)

How do those bilge keel cruisers handle, say, in the kind of constant near-gales we get here in the winter months (which I define as Oct. 30 - April 30), 25-35kt, choppy wind waves 7-12 ft. I know what a fin, bulb, dagger, and full keel will do in that.

But I haven't been on a bilge keel boat since the late 1960s. I think of them as something you putter along the shoreline and beach so the kids can play before dinner. From this picture you can see why. [that's me in the pfd. Safety first!]

Bilge cruisers: Set me straight!

[GordMay]

It seems, that you've been at this 'sailing thing', for a little while.

[NedX]

Originally Posted by GordMay

It seems, that you've been at this 'sailing thing', for a little while.

Perhaps...

I can also make a salt shaker balance like this.

But it doesn't make me a wise person, at the very least as far as bilge keel cruisers go

[tkeithlu]

Yeah, I can do that, too. The core of the issue is that other factors are of more importance to seaworthiness than the arrangement of the keel(s). Overall, two shorter keels will give you less righting moment, more drag, and less lateral resistance. Less moment means some loss of ability to keep the white side up, but doesn't influence other aspects of the design. And, as gets said frequently around here, every design is a compromise.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by NedX

How do those bilge keel cruisers handle, say, in the kind of constant near-gales we get here in the winter months (which I define as Oct. 30 - April 30), 25-35kt, choppy wind waves 7-12 ft. I know what a fin, bulb, dagger, and full keel will do in that.

I think you may remember the moulded bilge keeled yachts from the 1960s. The good news is things moved on in the 1980s with aero foil keel shapes, "towed in" a bit for additional lift make an good sailing yacht. Yes you will loose out on a Sunday morning bash around the cans if up against a deep fin, but you will still beat them to the bar by parking on the beach.

As for heavy weather, well yes we did choose to stop and turn around when faced with 35 knots on the nose last year. There are limits and I don't need to frighten the wifey, less I find myself sailing solo.


You might want to watch some YT videos of a chap called Roger Taylor and his yachts, Ming Ming and Ming Ming 2. He goes off from Scotland to the Arctic each year for the summer. Doesn't land anywhere, just sails about a bit for a few months before heading back home in the Autumn. His choice of weapon, first a Corribee bilge keeled 21ft yacht and then later a luxurious 24ft bilge keeled yacht. Fun aside he explains in his videos that when its really bad he wants shallow keels so the boat slides down the face of a wave rather than tripping on a deep keel, like a catamaran might. Perhaps he is on to something.

Pete

[boatman61]

Bilge keels only lose out on pointing ability really, on other angles they can equal and sometimes beat a fin keeler of the same size, for example on downwind runs.
I brought a 64ft aluminum Lauren Giles bilge keeler across the Atlantic shorthanded (me plus 1) and she would happily give me 5 knots in 10 knots of breeze and on a beam reach in 25kts with gusting winds and 4metre seas between the Azores and St Vincent, reefed down for stability she was happily doing 8+kts.
Quite a few 26ft Centaurs have done UK to the Caribe and the US on their own hulls so they can make a go of it if handled with respect and some common sense.
As Pete7 says.. look at Ming Ming a junk rigged Corribee 21.
And.. if you run aground on a falling tide.. Brew up and break out the biscuits and make out you meant it..

[Manateeman]

I have a twin keel 60’ aluminum expedition yacht that has a 6’ draft. Custom design by Ted Brewer. The keels are flat on the out face, foil in, flat trim tab bottom. I’ve built a lot of boats for a lot of builders and researched the subject of yacht design with other builders and designers. I wouldn’t change a thing on the hull Ted designed. Not a thing.
We could have built a number of other designs. Twin keels do cost a lot more. We wanted seaworthy, not speed. Very pleased with the design.
There is no perfect design, material, method of construction, nor builder.
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark and his eggnog, mistletoe, no snow, manatee gang

[Scorpius]

Since you are thinking of buying a boat here on the west (wet?) coast you might have a look and see if there are any Brent Swain origami boats for sale. They're pilot house (which I understand you would like) and mostly bilge keelers. They're not the prettiest boats on the water but they're tougher than hell and great for sailing past everybody in a crowded anchorage, dropping the hook in the shallows at the head of the Bay, and WALKING ashore at low tide!

[zemurray]

I have zero experience in different keel configurations. Sirius Yachts claims that their bilge keel sails as well as their fin keel. I suspect modern bilge keels are much better engineered due to the impact computer modeling has had on design.

[Scratchee]

Originally Posted by NedX

I can also make a salt shaker balance like this.

I once balanced a martini like that, and when the waitress came by I said, "May I have another just like this? And I do mean, EXACTLY like this."

A few seconds later someone bumped the table, the drink spilled and the glass broke. My suave moments tend to be short-lived.

[grantmc]

I have twin keeled Reinke and so I am a tad biased. But just taking one aspect of design can leave you short. Whether a boat has good performance (whatever that means to you) is a combination of rig, sail, hull, keel and rudder design. Plus a significant list of other items, especially weight. Compromises all.

I read earlier today in another thread someone asking about the handling of full length keels and the use/effect of propwash. The question was too simplistic. Handling is the combination of rudder and prop size and especially prop placement as well as the keel, oh and I guess too what the wind is doing that day. And it's the same with the question concerning bilge keelers.

Originally Posted by NedX

... How do those bilge keel cruisers handle, say, in the kind of constant near-gales we get here in the winter months (which I define as Oct. 30 - April 30), 25-35kt, choppy wind waves 7-12 ft. ...

My boat handles 25-36 kt winds with 3-4 metre seas in comfort. She's a big heavy boat with significant carrying capacity. It's the light winds where she's not so good.

I also feel that twin keels are very handy in a lot of places and well worth trading a little up and light wind speed for.

And I admit it, I cheat sometimes. So when I find we're too low beating to windward and it isn't working, I just raise the iron sail. Just a little above idle will give me another 10-15 degrees and at least a knot more.

And it may not be significant to those with money, but being able to avoid travel lift and dry storage charges to clean and paint the hull, check/change anodes etc makes quite a difference for me.

Like many things on CF, twin keels are an ongoing and ever lasting issue. I'm never fond to just dismiss people with links to old discussion threads without offering some views of my own. But just to round off my post here is a link to one of the more useful old threads. Looking for opinions on twin keel boats vs single.

You might read in one post about the guy in northern Australia, who has a twin keeled boat, and to him one of the positives is that he doesn't have to swim around and under the boat in crocodile infested waters to check the hull etc, he just beaches his boat.

And looking through that 5 year old thread was a post from Steady Urlich? He used to post some amazingly well researched material here. Whatever happened to him, anyone know?

[LLCoolDave]

I had a Feeling 39 next to me in a boatyard. It's a bit like a fiberglass Ovni. It has two small keel stubs, like 6" for beaching and tidal flows, then it has a centerboard for upwind work. It seems like a modern evolution of the bilge keel. Also with an SA/D of 22 it would be a pretty fast cruiser.

[NedX]

Originally Posted by Pete7

I think you may remember the moulded bilge keeled yachts from the 1960s. The good news is things moved on in the 1980s with aero foil keel shapes, "towed in" a bit for additional lift make an good sailing yacht. Yes you will loose out on a Sunday morning bash around the cans if up against a deep fin, but you will still beat them to the bar by parking on the beach.

As for heavy weather, well yes we did choose to stop and turn around when faced with 35 knots on the nose last year. There are limits and I don't need to frighten the wifey, less I find myself sailing solo.


You might want to watch some YT videos of a chap called Roger Taylor and his yachts, Ming Ming and Ming Ming 2. He goes off from Scotland to the Arctic each year for the summer. Doesn't land anywhere, just sails about a bit for a few months before heading back home in the Autumn. His choice of weapon, first a Corribee bilge keeled 21ft yacht and then later a luxurious 24ft bilge keeled yacht. Fun aside he explains in his videos that when its really bad he wants shallow keels so the boat slides down the face of a wave rather than tripping on a deep keel, like a catamaran might. Perhaps he is on to something.

Pete

Excellent, thanks! I love watching all the videos and I'll look this one up!

[Also, I think eventually everyone turns around (or turns away) when it's a steady 35 on the nose unless you're the navy, a tug, or a cargo ship.]

[NedX]

Originally Posted by Scorpius

Since you are thinking of buying a boat here on the west (wet?) coast you might have a look and see if there are any Brent Swain origami boats for sale. They're pilot house (which I understand you would like) and mostly bilge keelers. They're not the prettiest boats on the water but they're tougher than hell and great for sailing past everybody in a crowded anchorage, dropping the hook in the shallows at the head of the Bay, and WALKING ashore at low tide!

You know me well! I'll look up those boats.

[NedX]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Bilge keels only lose out on pointing ability really, on other angles they can equal and sometimes beat a fin keeler of the same size, for example on downwind runs.
I brought a 64ft aluminum Lauren Giles bilge keeler across the Atlantic shorthanded (me plus 1) and she would happily give me 5 knots in 10 knots of breeze and on a beam reach in 25kts with gusting winds and 4metre seas between the Azores and St Vincent, reefed down for stability she was happily doing 8+kts.
Quite a few 26ft Centaurs have done UK to the Caribe and the US on their own hulls so they can make a go of it if handled with respect and some common sense.
As Pete7 says.. look at Ming Ming a junk rigged Corribee 21.
And.. if you run aground on a falling tide.. Brew up and break out the biscuits and make out you meant it..

The Sirius 310 ds we're bringing across the Atlantic (notice how now I'm coming with) could well be bilge keel, so leave space in your appointment book!